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Fri Sept 30 2016 10:03:25

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay VeRO Case?

By: Reader

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Dear Ina, 
Now it seems that we have to learn and study the entire Design patterns for items. God forbid a design of one of our used items matches a design of some company. 

We got a VERO notice for Design Right Violation - Unauthorized Item ("Your listing was removed after receiving a report from the rights owner that your listing violated their design right.")

This is getting crazy. 

We were selling a used tripod, one item, we don't make them or manufacture, just reselling a used item and a company named Joby decides that the tripod is their design and VERO the used listing. 

We are not makers or designers, we were just selling a used good under the First Sale Doctrine (I guess), something we bought legally and reselling. 

To have to now worry about your item matching some Design of some company is getting crazy on eBay. 
Name Withheld please.




Comments (18) | Permalink

Readers Comments

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

This user has validated their user name. by: bitbybit

Fri Sep 30 10:55:12 2016

These tripods have been copied and mass produced for years. I have one made by dynex. As usual eBay Veros the small seller. Of course, all these mass produced Chinese copies come with Wenigs full support. Remember quantity over quality is what really counts on eBay.

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

This user has validated their user name. by: Rexford

Fri Sep 30 11:00:09 2016

Thank you for alerting me about Joby and their heavy hands.  Joby is now on my list of companies never to purchase from.

Joby, why not go after actual the manufacturer instead of the small seller?    

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: pace306 This user has validated their user name.

Fri Sep 30 16:57:02 2016

eBay profits from VEROing people so it will NEVER stop.

eBay also doesnt ever read the complaints NOR do they care what the actual complaint is.

If Joby says you're a monkey then you are. If they fax into eBay and say you stole their design - then you did, period.

eBay via verowatch.com and 3 other hidden subsidiaries charges these comapnys between $15-250 per 1/2 hour to help troll eBay listings for "violators".

eBay said in France that due to the BILLIONS of listings, they cant see each and every one..... yet these guys found YOUR one didnt they?

Its a version of Cassini that WORKS. Its part of the fee.

Just imagine if it worked that well for buyers looking for items!

We sadly just get the hobbled broken one ... 'cause eBay loves us 'n all.

So if you make a sale, great eBy gets paid.

If the let someone VERO you then they also get paid!

Its a game invented by the Mafia and other criminal organizations .. which is what eBay has become.

In fact Id rather trust "fat Tony" then Devin Wenig .. at least Tony isnt lying to me.

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

This user has validated their user name. by: Marie

Fri Sep 30 18:47:02 2016

Pace

How does Ebay profit from Veroing people?

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: Nuts2U This user has validated their user name.

Fri Sep 30 23:59:38 2016

Ina, this is one of the best headlines of all time! Kudos!

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: Frank F This user has validated their user name.

Sat Oct 1 09:59:59 2016

What I have to question about this all, is WHY don't the manufacturers VERO all these counterfeit items the Chinese are selling???? They do something unnecessary like this taking down one listing of a used item, MEANWHILE the Chinese and Hong Kong counterfeiters have sold 1000s of them and are the ones that have stole their design. I see it all over ebay.. For example, the NFL cracks down on USA sellers but not the Chinese. You have to wonder what really is happening... Is ebay giving some companies a share of revenue as a license fee for Chinese fakes, or can't US companies do anything about foreign sellers (ie I know it would be hard to sue them, but what about vero takedowns)??? All you have to do is look at the sports categories and its a virtual cesspool of fake counterfeit sports league items. They have 1000s of listing for Championship Rings, when there is no such licensed item, they are ALL counterfeit... Look at Disney, Superman, any character, and there are 100 of thousands of counterfeit items from each from Chinese sellers...

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: pace306 This user has validated their user name.

Sat Oct 1 20:30:32 2016

Marie

eBay owns/operates 3 different websites that enable brands to search eBay - with eBay provided tools - to find VICTIMS and send them notices.

While eBay has the resources to own multiple headquarters in multiple countries, have HUNDREDS of top flight mainframes, and employ THOUSANDS of people, they cant/wont look at the actual notices to see if they even make sense or are "real".

Protecting Sellers is just that - but not on eBay. Even Amazon does more then that.

So if a maker VEROS a seller - so what?

eBays sites charge between $150-$350 per half hour for the usage of the tools and the help "finding" these listings.

Though there are "billions of listings" and eBay in France said that NO ONE can look through them all, apparently when eBay wants to - they can. Thats why all the BS about Cassini falls flat on its face. eBay search ISNT broken - its "fixed" against you.

Verowatch.com is the leading one along with 2-3 others. You could ask - if VEROwatch isnt part of eBay - how do they use eBays IP aka the name VERO. I asked that myself and after a few lawyers letters and emails ... I got the answer (besides the fact that that domain is on eBay own servers)(or at least it was back then) .. Verowatch is part of eBay.

So its of no concern what happens to any listing. If the items sell then great - eBay makes FVF and listing fees. If it doesnt sell then they get listing fees alone. If the listing gets pulled - VEROwatch sends eBay a cut of the proceeds (if not all of it) and everyone is happy.

Vero notices need not be real, they do not need to be legal, they just have to exist. eBay colludes with the companies - since (as Ive said 5000x - theres no such thing as "Seller Protection").

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

This user has validated their user name. by: eXtinctBay

Sun Oct 2 02:19:51 2016

This is a bunch of baloney. No, they do not have a leg to stand on.

A counter notice needs to be filed against this Joboo* company. Unless the merchandise is counterfeit with their name on it, they have no rights.

A VERO takedown is NOT the be-all and / or end all to an eBay listing. It is a speed bump and not a road block. These companies do not have the resources or time to fight a counter notice with a lawsuit. And if they do not sue the seller, the listing will then be reinstated.

*Reference to the movie ''Major League''. (Bad things happen when you drink Joboo's rum).

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

This user has validated their user name. by: eXtinctBay

Sun Oct 2 02:29:12 2016

@Marie

Also, how does eBay profit from hiding listings from buyers? Is the money the big companies pay in back door deals (to suppress others) enough to offset the lost sales from smaller sellers??

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

This user has validated their user name. by: Marie

Sun Oct 2 02:38:48 2016

@pace

I didn't know all that, thanks for taking the time to answer my question.  How did you run across all that info about what they charge?

@extinctbay
We weren't talking about any of what you are asking about, nor did I post anything about it.  You must be thinking of another thread.


Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: pace306 This user has validated their user name.

Sun Oct 2 07:21:49 2016

Marie - it used to be on their site but was removed. Now you have to email verowatch itself to get those rates.

I may still have an old screen shot that shows it somewhere.

Xtinct - VERO take downs are/were designed to protect eBay from litigation. It was created as part of the court cases against it when it was accused of aiding copyright and trademark infringement.

The issue for me is that eBay doesn't look to see what the complaint is. There are a lot of valid takedowns, problem is that there are also too many "fake" takedowns and eBay like usual just pretends and looks the other way - hence my comment that there's no Seller Protection.

On eBay as stated, no program works right, but as long as it doesn't cost eBay any money, what it does to sellers (especially when they did no wrong) is irrelevant to San Jose.  

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: Snapped This user has validated their user name.

Sun Oct 2 10:28:16 2016

DCMA law requires any site to immediately pull any listing claimed to violate a rightholder, so that aspect of any such claim isn't fairly arguable.

However, that same law specifically states a presumption of innocence still exists, and that no sanction or punishment is warranted based on notice alone.

And THAT is where eBay malfeasance occurs.  The seller is immediately assigned an operationally impactful violation under a PRESUMPTION of guilt.  And though eBay provides a path of appeal, (via the VERO agent), they themselves will book no discussion nor act to remove any alleged violation until that agent validates the appeal.  Furthermore, that agent is under no compunction to even respond as eBay does not enforce any lack of response despite 'policy' stated regarding timeframes for such responses.  Which exceeds at least auction durations in any event anyway.

Meanwhile, they count on the fact that the cost of lost time and productivity to argue the violation assigned to the seller is much greater than any potential sale profit.  To them OR the seller.  Because as stated, eBay profits either way.  So many allegations remain despite their being unwarranted.

And woe be unto any seller getting another bogus violation while the first remains.  They will shutter you without cause or concern.  Period.

And even if a seller prevails to restore any listing, those initial potential buyers will be gone, rendering subsequent sale less likely.

One of my notible experiences involved an attempt to sell a BOSE home theatre system.  Seems one of the photos I took off the box of the unit was so good, I was accused of stealing it.  Even supplying the unedited version wasn't enough to demonstrate innocence, and I had to revise the listing to show a less professional photo in it's place.  And that was almost a 30 day ordeal - decidedly unpleasing to that particular consignor of this quality item.  Whom I never saw again incidentally.

Nefarious and unethical profit taking via this 'program' to be sure.  Just another day on the bay.

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

This user has validated their user name. by: eXtinctBay

Mon Oct 3 13:39:47 2016

@Marie

You asked how eBay profited from VERO, and I interpreted this as VERO pulling listings of items that would normally sell, and cannot since they are not available.

I used the fact that eBay hides listings, which is close to the same result because items cannot be seen. Did not intend to be ''off topic''.

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: ySirTinLee This user has validated their user name.

Tue Oct 4 03:23:53 2016

I wonder what ebay would do if they received a cease and desist notice because they are violating the Supreme Court ruling (Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons)?
You bought it.  You own.  You have a right to resell it.

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: Maui5150 This user has validated their user name.

Tue Oct 4 06:59:17 2016

Hmmm... I am trying to understand this.  

It sounds like your listing was removed because it was a clone/ knock-off.  If that is the case, I actually side with eBay / Joby on this.

There are a lot of people on here who do not understand counterfeit, patents, and copyrights.  

I will give an example.  A company I used to work for made clothing.  They had a very popular jacket which was registered and copyrighted.  This same jacket was then knocked off by a few foreign and domestic places.  Long story short, they were all sued, lost, that merchandise was seized, plus damages, and in many cases, where the quality was decent the old stock was labeled with a new sub-brand label that was launched and the merchandise sold.  

Companies have a right to protect their copyrights, patents, and designs, especially if they have been registered.  

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: timeaftertime This user has validated their user name.

Tue Oct 4 11:35:09 2016

I sell on Ruby Lane and some years ago a fellow shop owner listed some Longaberger baskets, her own personal property, she had purchased them new and now wanted to sell them.

Didn't Longaberger come after her for wrongfully using the name to sell the baskets!!

Well - what ELSE was she going to call them and have her listing be accurate? And they were hers, legally purchased, so should she not be able to accurately describe them? How far down the ladder should a company's claim to brand name be allowed to reach?

As far as I can see the only ''cure'' for the situation OP is describing (and other similar ones such as the Longaberger claim) is for Congress to pass legislation that EXEMPTS a ''small seller'' with fewer than $X in sales revenue / X number of items in question.  

However, I would not waste my breath waiting.  

Apparently one of the bills that is pending and will survive into the next session will remove a $1 million sales limit exemption for EVERY small online business selling interstate. Loss of the exemption would be phased in over three years - which will mean that in three years after this passes, EVERYONE will have to collect and remit sales taxes to states where they have made sales, even if it is only $10 bucks to Iowa and $5 bucks to Nebraska.

''The people'' likely won't be made aware of this, until it is too late. Many small business owners will just hang it up rather than try to manage nationwide sales tax submissions. The fools don't realize that putting small business out of business will destroy the country.

BTW - if the opposite of PRO is CON, consider ''progress'' vs. ''Congress.''





Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

This user has validated their user name. by: Marie

Tue Oct 4 19:37:10 2016

@maui5150

Oh if it was only that simple, but it isn't.  While certainly you are correct that there is a lot of listing out there selling counterfeit stuff, but that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that if Ebay / Vero removes a listing that it was truly a counterfeit.  Oh NO, not at all.  

For Vero to remove a listing, all they need is to say it is a counterfeit, NOTHING more.  No evidence at all.  It is just because they say so.

I once had a listing removed by a company called Jacuzzi, Inc.  They sell what is commonly known as a hot tub or jacuzzi.  Now I wasn't selling a hot tub for human beings of any size.  What I was selling was a doll toy.  I even went as far as having a conversation with Jacuzzi's legal representative.  They could care less that what I was selling was a doll toy.  It could not be called a jacuzzi even though that is a common word.  They were concerned it would be confused with their line of products.  I asked how in the world would a doll size item be confused with something for human beings.  They had no answer, but insisted it was misleading on my part.

On a few occasions I've had listings removed by Vero because of my picture on the listing.  They'd say it belonged to them.  Again I contacted their legal department and proved it was my pic.  They insisted that I took it from their website.  I again proved that my pic was not like the one on their website.  They didn't care.  They said it was theirs, so it was theirs period.  And I could not relist the affected listings without getting them closed again by Vero.

Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V   Does Tripod Maker Have a Leg to Stand on in eBay V

by: aim04744 This user has validated their user name.

Wed Oct 12 00:27:05 2016

Is this a UK company or listed on Ebay UK?

Did you use Gorillapod in your listing at all?

I had never heard of a design right violation and after a search it seems that it is the UK version of the Trademark infringement in the US.

There is very little out there regarding design right in the US. But this may be a new way US companies are trying to combat 3rd party sales.



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