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Sun May 10 2015 17:09:42

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

By: Reader

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Dear Ina,
This is quoted from a seller friend of mine.  

"This is getting ridiculous and outrageous.  Instead of advertising that you can buy almost anything on eBay, they're promoting how easy it is to get your money back!

Here's the email: 

Your money back in 1-2-3. That's our guarantee. 

EBAY HAS YOU COVERED
If you didn't receive an item or it's not as described, the eBay Money Back Guarantee covers your full purchase price plus the original shipping on virtually all items.
Learn more

Getting your money back is simple:

Go to My eBay.
Find the item in your purchase history and select "return" or "item not received."

Tell us if your issue isn't resolved.
If you and your seller can't work it out in three business days, contact us.

We'll get you your money back.
eBay will contact you within 48 hours." 

And what I have to add is very disturbing, the young population are catching on to this and exploiting this loophole. My 20 something neighbor and his friends have caught on to this. He was bragging about ordering a car part and when it didn't arrive the day it was supposed to filing a case and asking for refund and getting car part for free ($300) and that was not his first refund. 

He was saying that you could do this for most anything - if that didn't work, find something wrong with item that basically you never have to pay for anything on eBay again. And if they shut your account down for too many refunds you can just create another one and continue the getting refunds.  

I was so pissed I can't even talk to him anymore. 

I did try to explain that it was stealing and he said that eBay guarantee covers it, it is all over the site and advertised and it doesn't come from sellers. I tried to explain how it really works but he wanted no part of it, he said he had told all his friends how to work it also. I wish I could get everyone's ids and post them to various BBL blogs/sites but I do not know what they are.  

I am a former seller that just cannot believe the direction that eBay has taken.  They are headed down a bad path with money back guarantee and sending the email above to all the buyers is just asking for fraud and is going to wreck a lot of sellers. 

I just thought this was something you might want to look into, my neighbor cannot possibly be the only one exploiting this policy, I am friends with a lot of sellers who are having a lot of problems with bogus SNADs and now they are having to refund all shipping too.  

Terrible direction for eBay to take.  

Thanks for listening, 
Kathy




Comments (24) | Permalink

Readers Comments

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

This user has validated their user name. by: Basset

Sun May 10 17:42:23 2015

Perhaps they should just say:

''We don't have any confidence in our bad, bad sellers or the things sold on our site -
so we want to imprint the words ''Return'' and ''Bad Experience'' in your subconscious so you can be planning to return it before it ever arrives on your doorstep.''

Imagine a  ''You can Return ALL This!'' Bold Red Font banner running diagonally across the ads and ''Top Deals'' that appear on the opening screen!

It is one thing to allow returns and quite another to over-promote them!  



Note to self: don't sell things that would appeal to young demographic unless they are in diapers.

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

This user has validated their user name. by: iheartjacksparrow

Sun May 10 21:43:39 2015

Kathy's (OP) letter should surprise no one. That is exactly the type of buyer that eBay has spawned. Why pay for something when you can lie and get it for free? Or "rent" and return it for a full refund? Since there is zero seller protection, at some point all sellers are going to reach their breaking point and wave goodbye to eBay as it seems the majority of buyers have no moral compass and see nothing wrong with stealing.

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: maxmad This user has validated their user name.

Sun May 10 22:42:15 2015

We ended all our listings about a month ago, And we are still not free of this typical stupid ebay nonsense....



30 days later a buyer opens INR case,

item was shipped to paypal registered address, in USA, with tracking, item is accepted, and signed for.

Buyer is actually registered in Turkey, and used someone else's USA paypal account to purchase auction item, Buyer is demanding an INR refund...

We then spend countless hours on the phone, with multiple reps, telling we must escalate  

Finally we get a CS rep that closes the case in our favour,

It's crazy to think one click of this single low feedback buyer, literally takes us hours to fix,  , this buyer probably got his items, shipped to him from his friend in the US, but decided he had nothing to loose by simply clicking on a button to start a case, and trying to get a refund, as the op mentioned '' Get a Refund'' is plastered Everywhere, this guy might have been even hypnotized and subliminally did it without even a thought.

This is a typical scenario repeated a million times a day to sellers,

I really try hard to be optimistic, to just find something, anything, just one little thing good about ebay, but sadly I cannot.
 

We will continue to not list our products on ebay in it's current state,  

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

This user has validated their user name. by: Bill

Sun May 10 23:05:52 2015

How idiotic are the lunatics in San Jose?
I got the same email and to me and most normal people in this world when you get an email like this you are saying that the sellers on eBay can not be trusted and that you should not worry if you buy something because we will refund your money any way.
It is like having a grocery store and saying that do not worry you have a refund guarantee if you find that our food is bad. Would you even bother to shop there?
NO! I would not even go in there to waste my time to shop because the food might be bad.

These people are a bunch of absolute stupid idiots to think that people would waste their time to order something because if it is bad they will waste some more time sending it back and then waste even more time waiting for a refund.

What a bunch of Morons.

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: pace306 This user has validated their user name.

Sun May 10 23:19:01 2015

Selling on eBay is THEFT-TASTIC. Its encouraged by eBay as "unjust enrichment" and eBay just laughs and laughs and laughs.

They then tell you how LUCKY you are to even be allowed to sell on eBay, and that taking losses is simply a part of business.

"Be happy you didnt get back a box of rocks"!

eBay told me they dont care about fraud and abuse. Once you get the item (an item) back, if its wrong - go sue the buyer.

We dont know what you sent him or what he returned. Therefore (according to eBay lawyers) we cant be held responsible. YOu want to sue, sue. You want to sue him go ahead, you want to sue us - go ahead and we will then close your account. We do as we please and the MBG trumps all.

Stupid Mafioso's use lead pipes, bricks and guns. eBay uses its MBG program.

Both eBay and Paypal make money of return labels - theres no way shape or form, eBay will give it up.

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

This user has validated their user name. by: thehosst

Mon May 11 00:16:54 2015

No secrete here, but for the Newbies who think that they will make it on eBay, here it is:

Amazon is 10000 times better than eBay because they promote Product Feedbacks.

eBay is 100000 times a bad marketplace because they promote seller feedback and on top of it, promote the claims and negative feedback.

Since sellers are ( or were ) half of the eBay buyers, eBay is been sinking for now years. They only survive because of the investors that Wall Street fools everyday.

But incredible enough, that failure of a CEO is leaving the marketplace as "Mission Accomplished".

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: mindelec This user has validated their user name.

Mon May 11 01:38:06 2015

while ebay promotes it, ultimately the parents of these 20-somethings are responsible for teaching their kids that stealing is ok.

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: serioussellers This user has validated their user name.

Mon May 11 02:00:48 2015

The fraud that permeates every aspect of this sales venue is not limited to a certain demographic.  Perhaps the younger generation is just delayed in catching up with older fraudster role models.

This growing global eBay ''thieves market'' seems to institutionalize, glorify & reward every possible variety of fraud/theft/deceit/subterfuge from the top corporate level at eBay down to the individual con artist buyers.

The theft/haul of all the crooks certainly adds up to an astronomical financial loss (primarily suffered by the cheated sellers) - all from criminal theft on the internet.  Internet crime is of course a major problem, but internet crime on eBay, by eBay & encouraged by eBay seems to be on a stunning scale seen virtually nowhere else.

These stupendous losses/costs from criminal fraud (at every level) reverberate throughout the economy.  Not only have we read many first hand reports on this site & elsewhere, but we have witnessed the catastrophic impact of this chronic & wide scale crime on the demise of several friends' eBay businesses & the continuing demise of others' blacked out (invisible) eBay stores/listings.  

Destroyed businesses & lives catastrophically impact the economic health of the surrounding communities. Many eBay sellers (unable to find appropriate other venues for their types of items) have financially withdrawn into survival mode.  When they have nothing to spend on eBay (as we all know, sellers are/were also buyers), elsewhere online or at brick & mortar businesses in their communities, the economic atrophy & catastrophe just snowball.

The sales figures published by eBay are themselves fraudulent, but the phony numbers do create appealing/inflated totals for the investors to see.  eBay viewers rarely see the actual price at which an item sold.  Sometimes eBay does show it, sometimes it shows the ''markdown manager'' reduced price, sometimes it just indicates that it was sold at a best offer price,  but often they show the original listing price as the ''sold'' price (when it was not).

A viewer doing price research might think that a seller they follow sold a few things in recent weeks at favorable prices -- without realizing that the actual price paid was a fraction of the ''publicly'' reported price.  The published sales totals totally avoid & hide the issue of the tsunami of returns (or refund earning complaints without having to actually send the items back).  All those purchasers can (as coached so well & tenaciously by eBay) conveniently claim/allege some deficiency or concern & get their money back.  Theft in the retail world has never been easier!

For years, fraudsters on eBay have sometimes returned empty boxes, boxes with rocks, or boxes with swapped items (as they upgraded by sending their old broken ''widget'' back to the seller in place of the pristine one the seller had sent).  That sometimes used to happen occasionally, but now it has become the accepted norm that is authorized/enabled/encouraged by eBay.  Most of the constantly increasing number of buyers who buy/steal ''stuff'' now realize that it is extremely easy to ''make out'' & keep the item - & often not have to even bother to send back a box of rocks, an old/substitute ''widget'' or the seller's new ''widget'' that they have just stripped of the parts they need.

Our ''research'' into the fraudster buyers trying to game the system (when buying from us & from others) shows that they are not just young buyers who have recently learned how to be internet criminals.  The criminals run the gamut.  We were, in fact, a bit shocked when we saw that some buyers are risking their professional reputations - sometimes over an item that is just $30 to $90.

From feedback research (which increasingly requires even more ''reading between the lines''), it is sometimes obvious that compulsive shoppers go on binges, then realize/decide that they cannot really afford all 10 expensive purses.  Occasionally, perhaps this was a momentary lapse, but in many cases this is how some of the fraudsters routinely operate/shop.  They then send an eBay message to all the sellers claiming that negative feedback will be left shortly .... unless each seller refunds the money for the expensive purse that now suddenly has some alleged deficiency that does not even warrant sending it back.  Presumably many fearful sellers ''cave'' & refund the money & allow the buyer to keep the item. Some sellers, veterans of the eBay customer service / policies / returns ''wars'' will just surrender (& save the time & energy wasted by fighting the inevitable) -- & sustain yet another in a continuing series of losses.  In recent weeks, many case histories have made it obvious that it is becoming increasingly rare for eBay CS reps or supervisors to back up an honest seller being targeted by a fraudster buyer.

Some of our con artist buyers (who we often ''cut off at the pass'' with polite but incredulous responses to their demands/inquiries) have been high level,  highly credentialed, successful & esteemed professionals. When a partner at a law firm, an inventor/business owner, a doctor running a thriving regional practice, a distinguished professor, etc. try to make up stories (& use feedback extortion) to get their eBay purchases for free, it is a VERY sad commentary on the lack of ethics, integrity, character & honesty in the world.

Many ''clever'' fraudsters are now starting the extortion early.  They declare their own terms & demands in eBay messages/inquiries sent to the seller before a purchase is made -- often, for example, declaring that if the item (which has not yet even been purchased) is not received by the (impossible) date eBay has added to the listing, that they will be filing for the refund that eBay guarantees to them.  They point out that since that date is impossible, they expect the seller to pay for Express mail with morning delivery to get the item from coast to coast overnight (since eBay's declared delivery date was impossible with the stated service -- which is usually Priority but is sometimes Parcel Select -- with shipment in 1 to 3 business days after payment).  

In the case of several buyers, when eBay stated (on the seller's listing) that their purchase arrival date was to be Monday, after making a Saturday or Sunday purchase, of course they were anointed by eBay to deserve a full refund (with the bonus of keeping the expensive item that was mailed on Monday).  Maybe they decided that they really did not want to pay for all of the designer clothes that they just bought from a dozen sellers, so they make up stories/reasons to see which sellers will cave when threatened.  We didn't use to cave, but it now looks like caving will be required of all sellers.

Ebay wants to make all buyers gloriously happy, so what does it matter (the buyers think) if sellers ''lose'' some of their inventory and have to refund the money (or just have it snatched back by eBay).  They & the other fraudsters think that these little thefts/cons really don't matter & really don't hurt anyone.  But every second of every day  -- & throughout the globe -- there are victims, & the financial losses suffered & endured by many eBay small sellers multiply.  

Unfortunately, the actual dollar total remains to be tallied by those who are still conveniently looking away.  The total impact of millions of thefts from eBay sellers/internet crime victims reaches stratospheric levels that no one had previously ever imagined possible.  Many remain incredulous that the many types of ''eBay theft/crime'' continue to be permitted -- without any investigation, oversight or regulatory intervention.

We presume that eventually sellers (who have reached their limits in dealing with individual buyers) will go beyond dealing with the fraudsters and let the fraudsters' employers/business partners know that serial ''funny business'' on eBay does not reflect well on the businesses.  Often the con artists seem to think that by using the name of their firms/companies and by having their purchases sent there, that requests to keep the items, get full refunds and perhaps get bonus refunds for return postage (that they will never actually ''purchase'') will be automatic (because the seller is supposed to be intimidated by the name of the law firm, the name of the corporation, the name of the university, etc.).

In one case a couple of years ago, a buyer had a friend contact us to let us know that (since the item had not travelled thousands of miles by magic overnight) the buyer was demanding a free shopping spree on the seller's store.  The low ticket item now needed to be accompanied by several very expensive items.  So to avoid scathing feedback for a low ticket item, the buyer disappointed by the absence of a magic delivery service was only going to be satisfied (& give positive feedback) if she received the demanded shipment.  We were also ordered to communicate with her solely through her university email address (outside of eBay).  We declined, and we only sent her the one item for which we had been paid.

Some of the individual fraudsters/buyers are surprisingly aware of their actual insignificance compared to some of the bigger eBay ''funny business''.  In the past year and a half, on several occasions, the buyer ''extortion'' includes a new tactic. Many buyers have realized that many small sellers' stores and listings are invisible.  When they somehow, through some quirk/miracle (perhaps a few items were opened to search results for a day or two), found an item, they let the seller know that they should really take the buyer's offer of 10 cents on the dollar.  They tell the seller that the item is basically invisible (as is the seller's store -- since for very extended periods many sellers' stores are shown to have zero items for sale -- with 0 daily views of the items that are listed but never seen/shown).  They announce to the seller that probably no one else will ever see the throttled listing so that they might as well accept $10 for the $100 item (even though free shipping would cost the seller more than $10).

In that case the shopper was correct, even though that vintage item was the only one of its type listed on eBay, it was almost 100% ''invisible'' in search results.  The fact that clever buyers have the sales pitch ''the store and listings you pay for are virtually invisible, no one can buy what cannot be seen,  ha ha we found an item so since this might be your only chance to make a sale from an invisible listing/store, you really better take our 90% off offer ... & make sure that we receive it by the delivery date eBay posted ... even tho' it is before the seller's announced pack/ship date''.

No wonder individual buyers think their thefts are small potatoes -- when they are dealing with sellers who pay eBay store rent & listing fees for hidden/invisible stores/listings.  Why should a fraudster buyer care about any consequences when he declares that the seller is already being conned and cheated by the alleged global sales venue itself!

     

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: comet This user has validated their user name.

Mon May 11 03:18:20 2015

@SERIOUSSELLERS---This should be expanded and published in a much larger venue---Please see if you can get this out there.  Very well written and laid out.

And ALL valid points--I have had most of these problems myself including the "I found your item you had BETTER accept my unsolicited "offer"  or ELSE!"  I told THAT person I would rather donate that particular expensive jacket to a homeless person than see it go to some one with an attitude like that.  

And there are allegedly web sites devoted to fine tuning this sort of theft--I am reminded of Dickens when I see this.

We can't afford to sell on ebay=--yet we can't seemingly break away as there IS no other place.

We all NEED to pick ONE place to go sell--take lets say--20 or more listings there---and promote it on Face Book etc.  

I just opened an eCrater account and will be listing stuff there this week-=who will join me? What have we got to LOSE????

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

This user has validated their user name. by: Rexford

Mon May 11 07:37:52 2015

I've been fighting every liar buyer who attempts to steal from me since this new policy was implemented.  In the event that I lose enough cases that I am guardrailed, so be it.  They will be doing me a favor.

eCrater--no stress, no rampant thievery.

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: Harriet This user has validated their user name.

Mon May 11 09:40:22 2015

Wow, listen to all the negative comments here. Promotion of online thievery, online shoplifting, buyer scamming, buyer fraud, out and out criminal acts, and the "venue" turns a blind eye. You cannot micromanage a shopping site, and then not take the time to straighten out criminal acts. If the "venue" wants to get right into the middle of each and every sale, then they have to step up to the plate when things go wrong. Fair is fair. eBay well deserves the vitriol.  

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: doboy This user has validated their user name.

Mon May 11 09:50:27 2015

eBay doesn't give a rat's ass.  We pay, not eBay.

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: DingDong This user has validated their user name.

Mon May 11 09:58:53 2015

Kathy,
I guess I would talk with the cops and tell them what your 20 year neighbor is doing and if there is anything that can be done. I would also write to the Postal inspector about what was being said and ask if there was anything that can be done. Maybe a bug in there ears might help, but I doubt it.

So far, I have not had this problem. I am almost set up on my other sites and will be completely leaving ebay. I am looking that if they ''steal'' from me and I did whatever I can to get my item or cash back, I am going to keep all the evidence, as my backup, and will be posting ebay ID and the person's name and city and what had happen. I am sure that employers do searches of their employees.
But I will make sure I did whatever I could to recover first before posting.

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: Joey4711 This user has validated their user name.

Mon May 11 11:00:02 2015

Ebay is idiots...why not say if you have an item not described, understand this is rare as we are such a great marketplace to purchase from.....do the following..instead it is saying steal steal steal...something is wrong with your order....

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: Joey4711 This user has validated their user name.

Mon May 11 11:03:37 2015

What is amazing to me is that Ebay loses when they do these cases the money gets taken away from them as well...no wonder there stock price is cratering.....

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: DRA This user has validated their user name.

Mon May 11 14:00:07 2015

We have been eBay Sellers since 2002.  Our Current status is 100% positive Feedback, 5-star DSR's and Top-Rated Seller Plus. ...but for how long?? We have seen an exponentially increased amount of Buyer Fraud in the last year.  We place our "special mark" in 6 different locations on each item we ship (we resell boat and marine motor parts).  

We are experiencing increased returns of the buyer's old and broken part in return claiming it was the part they purchased from us...None bearing our special marks.  ...because they are on the water boating with OUR good part on their boat!  

The eBay selling environment is encouraging this buyer fraud, and eBay is becoming a not so wonderful place to sell any more.  

This is so sad, as we have totally enjoyed being eBay Powersellers!  

We can only hope and pray that the powers that be, will reverse course on some of the policies and manner in which they are promoting them (such as the eBay Money Back Guarantee, etc..).

When we lose money...so does eBay!  

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

This user has validated their user name. by: Rexford

Mon May 11 20:40:36 2015

DRA, I'm pretty sure that what you are describing is mail fraud.  

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

This user has validated their user name. by: LasVagueness

Mon May 11 21:09:33 2015

@Basset ''You can Return ALL This!'' Lol!!!!!!!!!! :-)

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: val2525 This user has validated their user name.

Tue May 12 02:29:43 2015

I think this article is mis-titled.

"Sellers pay for eBay's deliberate support of buyer fraud" would be more appropriate.

Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings   Sellers Pay for eBay Misunderstandings

by: scaryguy This user has validated their user name.

Tue May 12 11:21:35 2015

Two weekends ago I was lucky to have a buyer want to return a brand new camera bundle claiming it was ''out of focus''. Even offered to pay return shipping himself. (right there I knew something was up).
Item now opened (not new anymore) and missing a zoom lens. Buyer just needed a new lens and did not want to pay for it. And since they opened a return case (I hate those so much. Automatically freezes the funds) it paid them out automatically because their tracking showed I received it back.
Now I have a used camera bundle missing the zoom lens. Which I will be lucky to get half of what I paid for it plus ebay and paypals rape fees.

Like this article states I also know MANY buyers who scam on ebay cause they know how easy it is. Ive even had buyers tell me in private emails that they scammed me. And ofcourse since it was on a private email ebay could care less about it.

HUGE ebay fan here! (sarcasm)

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