Ina Steiner EcommerceBytes Blog
News and insight focusing on ecommerce.
by Ina Steiner, Editor of EcommerceBytes.com
Tue Nov 18 2014 22:47:22

PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

By: Ina Steiner

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Wednesday's EcommerceBytes Newsflash describes an unpopular policy PayPal is rolling out that some sellers (and maybe some buyers, too) are referring to as PayPal's 6-month rental policy. That's because buyers can file claims 6 months after an item was estimated to be delivered to them.

It's now critical that sellers on all venues save proof of delivery confirmation along with details. Take a look at some of the requirements in the PayPal Seller Protection under Section 11.4. Here's a snippet

---
"Proof of Shipment" is online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following: The date the item is shipped; The recipient's address matches the shipping address provided on the Transaction Details Page; The recipient's address, showing at least the city & state, or city & country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).

"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following: The item's status as delivered; The date the item is delivered; The recipient address is the same as in the shipping address section on the Transaction Details Page; The recipient's address, showing at least the city & state, or city & country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent); Signature Confirmation as described below if the full amount of the payment including shipping and taxes is $750 USD or more or its foreign currency equivalent provided below (see website for the chart).
---

These are the questions sellers had about the policy that we forwarded to PayPal. We'll do a followup as we get more clarification.

1) Will USPS, FedEx, UPS, eBay, and other marketplaces retain information about transactions for 180 days?

2) Some believe it could take up to 230 days after payment for PayPal to review (180 days, plus the 20 days allowed before escalating a dispute to a claim, plus the 30 days PayPal may take to review the case). Is that correct? And if so, will the entities mentioned in question 1 retain information about transactions for 230 days?

3) Will sellers on various marketplaces be able to access their original listings to defend against SNAD cases in PayPal Purchase Protection cases?

4) Will PayPal and or eBay be advertising the new 180-day coverage policy?

5) Will eBay direct buyers who try to open a claim outside of eBay's Money Back Guarantee policy to the PayPal Protection Policy?

6) It's my understanding that USPS (and perhaps other shipping carriers) give sellers 60 days to file a claim, leaving 4 months of exposure to shipping claims. How do sellers protect themselves from this unprotected exposure?

7) "Currently, PayPal's embedded Refund link within the transaction details is only good for 60 days. This link is important for sellers to receive appropriate reimbursement of PayPal's % fee. Will this link's expiration be expanded to cover the new return policies?  If not, how do sellers validly refund to realize recovery of their fees?"

8) Will all sellers have to adhere to the extended 180-day PayPal Purchase Protection policy? Will big box retailers, brands, or any other entities have an exemption?

9) Will there be an appeal process, and if so, can you provide information?

In disputes about item not as described, it's important sellers have access to their original listings. A suggestion: don't rely on marketplaces to keep those completed transactions for you - perhaps printing each completed listing as a PDF file might help.

The bottom line is that sellers must be in a position to defend their transactions 6 months into the future, so good recordkeeping is vital. Let us know if you have questions or comments!




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Readers Comments

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: eBankrupted

Tue Nov 18 23:32:28 2014

Welcome to the Scammer's Paradise! I'm anticipating blogs explaining just how to file your 'Significantly Not As Perceived' PayPal SNAP! claim.

What? You thought that antique lamp would give you psychic powers to find the Holy Grail? SNAP! Got that refunded!

Need to borrow a Table Saw from Home Depot for 179 days? SNAP! And a BONUS! Home Depot didn't even respond to the SNAP claim! FREEBEE!!

Price went down on that hot electronic device? No problem, SNAP! You used it for 6 months, no cost!

You bought that gold at $400 higher per ounce than it is 6 months later? SNAP! Got your refund and invested again!

I now do not accept PayPal as of 12:01pm 11/18/14, after 1.5 Million $ sold through PayPal.

I will enjoy the free rent items now myself on my own SNAP! claims.

Enjoy the quicksand, ebay fools. We need to rent your junk for awhile.



Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: iheartjacksparrow

Tue Nov 18 23:36:40 2014

I deleted PayPal as a payment method for my eCrater store today. I don't have the time or energy to jump through the hoops necessary to protect myself. Hopefully sellers all around the internet also dumped PayPal today.  

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: eBankrupted

Tue Nov 18 23:49:28 2014

Darn, I forgot to mention that hard to find 'Lot of 20' is now 50% less on Alibaba, and we weren't able to sell them. SNAP! Now we can buy 40 of them at half the price with our 6 month refund! WOW, SNAP SNAP SNAP! We love 6 months to sell your item, or a SNAP 'Significantly Not As Perceived' refund!

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: shabbychick

Tue Nov 18 23:56:39 2014

Well, I ended all all my remaining Ebay listings early tonight. Someday I may go back but I am going to have to do some heavy duty soul searching. Just signed up for Etsy's new payment system which can bypass Paypal and I am going to encourage good ole checks and money orders there.  

Someone very astutely suggested that Ebay has become like a cult that will punish us if we are bad. I think I have some deprogramming to go through. I'm very tired of being treated like a naughty child. It is demeaning and I feel my human dignity is being threatened by this cult like atmosphere.
I will concentrate more on my two antique, collectible, and upcycle booths here in NC.  I am at two different brick and mortar malls where there are NO returns and an atmosphere of fun coupled with respect for both buyer and seller. Hmmmm kinda sounds like the early days of Ebay.

I feel like the guy in Network.  ''I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!''

I will probably go back to Ebay  but for now I want to sit back and watch Ebay's numbers plummet as the word of this  very, very bad decision of Paypals gets around.  

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: Rexford

Wed Nov 19 07:15:15 2014

What in the HE** is wrong with the management at these two companies?  (eBay and PayPal).

As far as eBay or PayPal retaining information that would help a seller fight a case, don't count on it.

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: Anonymous Annie

Wed Nov 19 08:11:09 2014

Rather than spending my valuable time and resources trying to figure out this confusing maze... AND instead of trying to devise a complicated plan to avoid the landmines... AND instead of totally rewriting my return policies and overall business model to minimize the risks of dealing with Paypal... it seems to me that it would be EASIER, SAFER and FASTER for the most at-risk sellers to simply ABANDON PayPal completely.

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

by: DingDong This user has validated their user name.

Wed Nov 19 08:18:07 2014

@Annie
I wish I could get rid of Paypal. I wish more selling venues have direct checkout or other payment options that are reasonable. I just can't afford my own website.


I know that charge cards have 60 to 90 day dispute times. But most of the charges are going into a ''BOX STORE'' to purchase NEW items that should have a warranty or a RETURN of the ITEM that is defected. There are a lot of sales that a of NEW items on the internet and yet there are even MORE USED items. Used items should not be held to the same standards of a NEW item.
Besides, PAYPAL or any other Money Transmitter should not be able to dictate the ''store/sellers'' policy. I understand that there are BAD Sellers that need to be booted, but there is a lot of us that are willing to work out problems.

With the idiotic policies of ebay, I have no return policy now. But if I have someone that files a claim and wins will now get refunded and the item because ebay will say, ''You don't accept returns.'' Well, If I have to refund money for an item, I sure want the item back. I can't see how they can rule you store and selling of items.

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

by: Russ This user has validated their user name.

Wed Nov 19 08:33:21 2014

[Cue music] ... ''It's the most wonderful time of the yearrr...''

The spirit of ''giving'' is alive and well at eBay.  Lessening the window that may generate a ''defect'' on the heels of the PayPal rollout of the 180-day rental period.

I'm so happy I may not get a defect but I may have to return the full purchase price plus shipping to a disadvantaged buyer/renter.

More hoops, carrots, smoke and mirrors.

Good luck to those still aboard the sinking, stinking garbage scows of eBay and PayPal...you will now need larger buckets to bail...

Happy Holidays!!

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

by: ignatz This user has validated their user name.

Wed Nov 19 08:57:08 2014

Biggest "cluster u-know-what" that ebay has perpetrated yet on its sellers.  Six months for a SNAD?  What kind of a person needs six months to figure out that they didn't get what they ordered?  PP must believe this will give them "competitive advantage" over ApplePay.  It won't.  It will prove to be one of the final nails in their coffin.

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

by: GotToGetOut This user has validated their user name.

Wed Nov 19 08:57:23 2014

I haven't quite figured out what to do yet but I can tell you one thing -- I have a brick and mortar store and I DID NOT get Paypal for credit card payments.  I went with Square even though it's slightly more (a fraction of a percentage).

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

by: Ebay Seller-Ebay Buyer This user has validated their user name.

Wed Nov 19 09:12:58 2014

6 months is completely ridiculous and makes for bad business all around. Have to wonder if anyone in ebay's upper management ever went to business school. For starters a return is a negative and Business 101 teaches to focus on the positive. So to see Ebay's continued emphasis on their return policy does not generate business, but discourages it. Any new buyer who comes to ebay has to be nervous when they see the focus is on ebay's return policy.  And any new potential seller who sees this 6 month return policy will quickly forget about selling on ebay, which means less money to buy on ebay.

Ebay upper management should be advertising that ebay has the best prices and the best products and the best sellers. Period.

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: Rexford

Wed Nov 19 09:44:55 2014

"Have to wonder if anyone in ebay's upper management ever went to business school."

No, they simply don't sell on eBay so they have no skin in the game, no risk to them whatsoever.

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: Anonymous Annie

Wed Nov 19 10:04:08 2014

DingDong laments: ''I wish more selling venues have direct checkout or other payment options that are reasonable. I just can't afford my own website.''

I totally understand and sympathize, DingDong. For many small sellers this is a BIG challenge and obstacle. Depending on which venues the seller uses, the seller is at the mercy of the venue.

Also, for independent sellers, depending on which shopping cart software they use (and depending on the seller's technical and programming expertise), the seller's options are often limited to the most basic ''plug-and-play'' payment services.

Unfortunately, big-players such as PP fully realize this, and aren't hesitant to take advantage of the situation. They KNOW in advance that for many sellers, the options are limited. They also know that short of closing-up-shop, those sellers will grudgingly comply with all the new rules and requirements that come their way.

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: Anonymous Annie

Wed Nov 19 10:18:54 2014

GotToGetOut writes: ''I went with Square even though it's slightly more (a fraction of a percentage).''

I think it's a mistake for sellers to look ONLY at the fraction of percentages when choosing a payment processing service.

Instead, sellers are likely to be better off by looking at the BIG PICTURE as you did, GotToGetOut. In my opinion, you made a good choice.

Choosing a payment processing service because it ''saves'' 1/2 percent on a transaction is NO BARGAIN if the overall risk and inconvenience outweighs the apparent ''savings''.

What good is it for me to ''save'' $10 a month in transaction fees, if the payment processor causes me to LOSE $50 per month in having to deal with returns that fall outside of my already-reasonable return policy?

What good is it for me to ''save'' $10 per month if I must REWRITE my store policies (ie: adding a restocking fee) in order to compensate for the additional risks. --- These types of policies are also likely to DETER customers from making a purchase... so I lose TWICE.

Or... I could RAISE PRICES across-the-board to compensate for the risks and losses of dealing with PayPal. But, that would make me less competitive. (And that's hardly a fair trade-off for the 1/2 percent ''savings''.)

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: LDS Brother

Wed Nov 19 10:29:07 2014

REXFORD said: "What in the HE** is wrong with the management at these two companies?  (eBay and PayPal)"

Rexford, did not this 180 sh*t come out AFTER that @SSHOLE John Donahoe became the temporary leader of Pay Pal also ?

I am making my plans to leave FINALLY ! Enough is Enough Wenig can shove the NEW eBay up his @ss and make it the PEW eBay ( as in stench )

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: LDS Brother

Wed Nov 19 10:41:02 2014

For those of you who HAD to stay and take the eBuse as eBankrupted phrased it a bit ago, my heart goes out to you, as I was one also !

BUT........ The time has come that I knew and must remind all of you hanging on, because you desperately needed to, that the time has come, eBay is OVER !

For me, and you !

There is NO DENYING, this company is dying, it is garbage, the sales, views that just aren't there.

Whatever sales eBay does feel fits their pocket best is where the traffic is steered to.

Being low price, is not an advantage, TRSP no advantage, 5.0 DSR's no advantage, I am in SHOCK at how lousy my sales are at this time of year ? The whole year in General was my worse ever, but this is a damn mind blowing experince, to have busted my ass to be TRSP and do all as eBay has commanded, and have pathetic sales at this time of year.

Folks, the eBay site is over with !

Being TRSP, 5 Star Seller, and low price leader and if I am doing this lousy for all my hard work, than HOW IN THE HELL can an above standard seller do good ?

I have been beaten down to nothing by John Donahoe since 2008 and HE WON !

I am exiting eBay, as it exited me starting in 2008

Good Riddance to it ! I hope we all tell all NOT TO SELL or BUY on this evil site !

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: LDS Brother

Wed Nov 19 10:51:23 2014

And in closing I would like to say, eBay has come to the point financially that I CANNOT hold on any longer, there is NOTHING to hold onto !

The meager amount I made this year, and now during the traditional best time of year has given nothing for me to hold onto, the stress is destroying my health it is over for me, and hopefully for all of you like me, get away, we ALL must learn how to live again without this evil company controlling our lives, adding tremendous stress for such little to no reward for the effort.

Oh what a BLESSING it shall be when I am free from this bondage ! And for all you like me also !

Amen

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: Rexford

Wed Nov 19 11:43:01 2014

LDS, this is a company that is desperate for buyers.  They put policies into place that attract the worst kind of buyers (thieves, scammers, ruin and return), essentially offering them the a six month free trial, with returns for any reason, and even free return shipping.

It is a slap in the face to their customers (the sellers) and it will backfire.  Like you, sellers are fed up and are leaving.

Since Donahoe came along, every draconian policy they have put into place has actually had the opposite effect.  It has driven buyers away. (i.e. eBay sellers who were once making a lot of money on eBay, and were spending a fair amount of it for products on eBay)....putting it back into the eBay ecosystem.

I don't remember the last time I made an eBay purchase.  I refuse, and would never even think of it unless there is a major eBay management house cleaning with a complete change of course and a rollback of these horrid policies.

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

by: pennyemporium This user has validated their user name.

Wed Nov 19 11:53:10 2014

in checking back through my delivery confirmations with the USPS, i find that the post office is keeping them online for six months, but not a moment past that.

for example, the tracking information for the package mailed may 18 is no longer visible visible.  

and eBay has stated many times in the past that they will accept nothing but on-line viewable info from the shipping company itself. saving our own copies or pdf's will not help us defend a claim.

Perminate Link for PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay   PayPal Holds Sellers Liable for 6 Months, On and Off of eBay

This user has validated their user name. by: iheartjacksparrow

Wed Nov 19 11:59:08 2014

One of the local channel's "Tech Guy" had a segment on this morning's news show about selling on eBay. For those who want a good laugh:

http://ktla.com/2014/11/19/ebay-selling-secrets/

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