Should eBay Guarantee NOS Even When Sold As Is?

by: Barbbie

Yes Marie,
Unfortunately in this case I had mistakenly hit accept return instead of message and there is no back out for that! We had already sent many messages back and forth and I do not know how it happened but it was either me or a glitch and since ebay does not have any glitches it must have been me.
Usually I just leave them in request stage unless it is beneficial for me to do otherwise.  But having done it, there was no option but to pay for it and hope for the best.
When it came back wrong, I used the test program, hoping it would help. It did no good but there was really no other option as I was losing all the money anyway. I usually do not worry about defects as I rarely have any.  I had already paid for and accepted the return and there was already a full refund that was going to happen either way, so escalation under the beta resolution program (which was supposedly to help sellers who were being unfairly accused by buyers) was my only hope at that point.

This happened the week the program began and complete within the next week, there was not a lot of info as to whether it was helpful or not at that time. That is why I called them to discuss it.  I have not used ebay forums since powersellers was ended. Yes, I am aware the CSR's are generally unhelpful but again, new program, not a lot of options anyway so not really worse off than before (except the defect) but my sales bumped after that for 3 months so maybe I need another defect.

As probably one of the first Guinea pigs of the program, you may have heard it from me that it didn't work, as I have told this story a few times.

But, whether I was naive, misunderstood it, stupid or whatever, the outcome was the same as usual: You cannot prove the buyer is wrong unless they admit it in an ebay message and ebay does not stand behind the sellers even as far as what the ad states or any silly claims the buyer makes and if you do not refund (or refund less), the buyer can escalate it and you will lose anyway and get a defect.

I am sorry if anyone mistook my relating a year old story to a need for help but thanks to you for trying to assist.

by: toolguy

@Redsqrl

"Maybe buyer is dishonest."

Maybe the seller is dishonest!

Seller could've resealed a broken tube in the package and claimed it's NOS. It's possible.

by: lurkulator

Arrgghhhhhhhh.

Seeing the same dense stubborness here as on the eBay thread (and I'm pretty sure from the same few both places)

Do you ''buyer deserves a working tube'' folks also expect a seller to open a mint-in-box collectible Barbie Doll to verify that there aren't any smudges on the back of the skirt and that the legs bend, destroying the collectibility of that doll which is no longer mint-in-unopened-box and can never be again?

When the rational prospective collector buyers never intend to open the box and ''play'' with the Barbie?

As George pointed out:
IT WAS SOLD AS A COLLECTIBLE NOT A WORKING SET OF TUBES!

by: pace306

Lurk .... I agree.

My question goes further - how does a seller TEST 40, 50, 50 yr old equipment?

Does every seller have to own every piece of test equipment ever created - when something is sold as is/for parts OR sold NOS?

Should yo have to go to a junk yard and find that 52 Hudson to test a brake light?

At what point does THE BUYER take some responsibility?

As I told TOOL - if the item is sold as NEW then theres no question - but if the drop down is NEW OTHER or PARTS - thats where it should end.

eBay has NO business getting involved and worse - always makes the wrong call.

by: lurkulator

>>At what point does THE BUYER take some responsibility?

That is the problem in a nutshell.

A part of the new "entitlement" culture. "It's not Johnny's fault that he WON'T read the listing descriptions and is an ahole".

Big business is catering to it instead of taking a stand, afraid of a viral social networking backlash. That trickles down to small brick and mortars and online venues like eBay because now the [strike]idiots[/strike] buyers have been rewarded for their irresponsible behavior.

I've not had more than a couple of problem buyers in a decade and a half - all the rest were great. Karma or category I don't know.

by: Chicago48

We occassionally sell NOS stock. What we do is open the box and test the item first before we even list it.
^^
The solution to the problem; also sell "local" have the buyer come test the product, look it over make sure it's what they want.  Or make a video of the product working for the buyer.

by: lurkulator

It was a collectible where the sealed boxes were what made it collectible.

by: HardWorkingSeller

I buy a lot of professional electronics so I run into this a lot.

The seller is at fault if they think that somehow they have a get out of jail free card if they say ''Vintage'', ''Collectible'' or ''as-is'' somewhere in the listing body.

The eBay money back guarantee isn't going away any time soon.  Personally I think that it has brought a lot of confidence back to the platform and it enables me to sell items priced in the thousands of dollars range without the buyer having a moment's hesitation in making a positive purchase decision.

The platform rules are clear (to me at least).  If you don't want to be responsible for the item not working then you list it for parts or repair.   If you decide to market the item as a non-returnable Collectible and you don't want to open the package then I would classify it as Not Working and state in the text that they are unopened.

The classifications of New, New Other, and Used clearly state that the item works as intended (or that there are very specifically stated performance limitations).

The seller isn't complaining about the fact that they are getting a much higher price by classifying the item is New Other (ie. fully working and that the buyer can return them for a refund if that isn't the case).

The flip side of that benefit is the (probably small) percentage probability that they will have to step up to support a customer in the event that their guess that the item still works is not good.

Someone spending $1400 on electronic parts is probably a serious professional buyer who knows what they are doing.  If they have the ability to test the item and you don't then I would side with them in any event.

If at all possible,the best approach is to test everything you sell.  As a buyer I would much rather you explain that the tape on the box has been cut so that you could perform a test (and include the results in the listing) as that reduces the risk of my wasting my time having to make a return and maybe having to deal with finger pointing and SNAD process etc.  

In this case if I thought that I had audio valve tubes worth $1400 I would presume that the value is coming from their rarity as a working item so I would sell them individually with detailed photos of the part number, base, dimensions etc.  And I would list as New Other (new old stock), explain that they are untested and offer a 14 day no quibble return window.  The detailed photos of the item would protect you from someone returning their failed burnt out valve.

Take care of your customer and chalk it up as a learning experience.

by: ignatz

"If anyone here went into a Sears store and found a NOS item that cost $500 and when you got it home and opened that package if it did not work would you return it for a refund?"
---------

Maybe I misunderstand you, but ---

Sears ***doesn't*** sell NOS items.

Sears - and all standard retailers - sell NEW items (with some exceptions for refurbished, etc.), and there's an implied (and explicit) warranty on the items they sell.

When you pick up an item at Sears, there's no tag that says "New" / "Used" / "For Parts", etc. etc.

eBay is quite different. A large number of the items available there are advertised as "Used", many of which are advertised as "Collectible."

"New Old Stock" is a category of collectible, in which the **value** derives from the fact that the item is still sealed in its original package.

BUT -- and here's what eBay is ignoring - ***that doesn't make the item "New"!***

It's still a very old item. It just happens to be sealed.

Let's say a NOS item is 25 years old. According to eBay policy, the seller is expected to extend the original manufacturer's warranty by 25 years!!!

No sane seller, once they understand this policy, would put that item up for sale on eBay.

They'll go to Craiglist or one of the other "cash & carry" services that are springing up like weeds now.

by: pace306

@HardWorkingSeller

Unless I misunderstood - he sold it AS is - as apposed to NEW.

NEW and NEW OTHER indicate that the item SHOULD be in new working order - with maybe some scratches or other limitations.

NEW OTHER isnt for an AM/FM radio that only gets AM - thas simply defective.

If they were being sold as a collectible that SHOULD work - then thats the overriding feature.

Based on the posts - there were many others for sale for less money but the buyer CHOSE to pick the sealed box ones - and thats where HIS responsibility kicks in.

Most people dont have the ability to test complex items. And, if you sell them AS IS because you dont have the ability to test them (or the items/ability to test doesnt exist) then they should be sold AS IS/for parts etc and eBay should stand behind the seller.

Besides, taking pics means NOTHING on eBay - ask any seller - or ask me - I can tell you since i deal in items from time to time where pics (aka he said/she said) come up - ie fashion items.

You can take all the pics you want - it means NOTHING. Buyers can remove tags, buyers can swear they got a different color and take a pic and SWEAR its different!

The issue here SHOULD be:

1) make a policy and stick to it. Even if its one we cant agree on (sellers vs eBay) but make it clear so that we all know. eBay likes to INVENT and extend policies to cover buyers when the black & white text says the opposite

and 2) explain where and when FIRST usage exists. It of course works on NEW items, but does it cover 50+ yr old items? The reason a policy is needed is that sometimes "testing" an item damages or changes its condition. Thats why for example in fashion categories theres WITH and WITHOUT tags. That tiny paper tag means an awful lot - to a buyer AND to a seller.

Not all of us are going to agree here on these definitions - but what bothers most here (and I happen to agree with Georg) we need CLEAR guidelines.

by: Whatever

"I'm curious what readers think"

Here's what I think - there is no longer ANY protection for sellers regardless of how careful you are - how accurate your descriptions are - how many pictures you include - working pictures or not. Ebay is at the mercy of buyers now and they know it. They created the problem and we all have to live with it or go play in someone else's sandbox or build your own.

by: eXtinctBay

@Pace (and others)

Tubes can be easily tested, provided that there is access to a Hickok or other tube tester. I have hundreds right now that will not see the light of day on eBay until I can test, document, and mark (to avoid a buyer returning a non-original item) them.

These items are not a sealed Barbie doll or record album, for instance. Those are things that are sold and displayed as new, and never opened. The premium selling price comes from the fact that the seal has and will NEVER be broken. And the fact that there will be no returns if the wrapper is opened or removed needs to be clearly noted.

In the case of electronic parts, they are intended to be opened and used in a piece of equipment someday. The seller left a loophole by not testing or marking the tubes. Almost certainly, the overseas buyer had the exact broken item in their collection, and planned the swap as soon as a NOS example was available.

Bottom Line: An online seller of anything expensive needs to take whatever precautions they can to avoid fraudulent returns, by documentation or any other means necessary.

by: mcposty

As is means as is. All risk assumed by buyer.

As long as they receive what they ordered and it's described correctly then that's that.

If a buyer is not comfortable with the unknown then they don't have to buy it.


End of story.

by: ignatz

Unfortunately, the seller used a "vintage" category, and so was able to make the "Item Condition" field in the listing a "--" (i.e. a double dash).

I'm not sure what that means, and I don't recall ever seeing an explanation from ebay. I've never used that "condition" myself.

And I don't believe ebay even has an "As-is" condition.

I wonder if the seller had listed them "For parts / not working", if the outcome would have been different.

But who knows?  Is ebay saying?  Not really.

by: toolguy

@mcposty

"As is means as is. All risk assumed by buyer."

Maybe on YOUR website, but NOT on eBay's!

As is means: If the customer isn't happy the seller will have to pay.

by: RL15

no matter how the seller listed and described the items does not matter at all on fleecebay.

fleecebay would side with the buyer anyways.

by: pace306

eXtinctBay - does a seller HAVE to test each piece of sealed equipment before selling it on eBay? (assuming its NOT being sold as NEW)?

Should every eBay seller test and open EVERY item (new OR NOS as/ISis)?

Are eBay sellers required to own testers of ALL equipment ever made if they want to sell those brands?

What about vintage car parts? Is a run to the local junkyard required?

I think we can ALL agree on NEW and its meaning that DOA items sold as NEW ARE covered under eBays MBG policy.

If you buy an old item AS IS - what does AS IS mean?

Truth be told maybe there IS no such thing as AS/IS or FOR PARTS - and IF thats the case - then let eBay state so - but they cant have it both ways.

As an aside - YOU may be an expert in electronics - but some people (buyers) are NOT.

Tubes (and I have quite a few tube radios myself)(most need to be recapped though before even getting to tube replacement) arent always a simple item - neither are transistors. Just because Google says you can substitute parts (germanium vs silicon and russian replacements) DOESNT mean its so.

In new equipment - sellers have to assume the risk that the buyer isnt a total bone head. But in AS IS or vintage?

As said - where does the buyers responsibility come in if at all?

All I "want" out of this is CLARITY from "our partners" so that we all know "where we stand".

Like with clothing - Id NEVER sell old tubes on eBay ... god the night terrors!

by: eXtinctBay

Pace-

No, of course a seller should not have to test each and every piece of new merchandise.

But when we are talking about items that are well over $1000, a seller had better take the time and cover his or her butt.

If a used item (such as a car part) is listed in ''AS-IS'' condition, and the seller specifically states there are NO RETURNS, and they it is offered for PARTS OR REPAIR ONLY, this is a different scenario.

The buyer should know that the part will need a rebuild or fix, and either know how to get it serviceable, or how much it will cost someone else to do so.

This is different than a new part that would be assumed to be in fully working order.

When brick and mortar electronics parts stores ruled the landscape, it was a common practice to offer NO REFUNDS WHATSOEVER on any parts. This was to protect the store from a novice installer blowing up a part due to incorrect voltage or installation (or swapping out their broken stuff).

I totally agree that eBay has allowed buyers to have basically near zero responsibility when it comes to purchasing. Obviously, their attitude towards their TRUE CUSTOMERS (us sellers who  purchase, warehouse, list, and ship merchandise, not to mention pay their bills) is to ''take it or leave it''. After all, we are just NOISE.....

by: Ming the Merciless

RedSql cheered:

"It's part of the cost of doing business on ebay."

ONLY on ebay does the judge. jury, and executioner abandon common sense and rational thinking.

by: Ming the Merciless

Ebay encourages and cultivates buyer irresponsibility and illiteracy.

This marketplace was founded on mutual respect. When ebay changed the rules, they made no adjustments to the community to offset the prohibition against leaving the legions of snowflake scam buyers ego shattering, hurtful, mean, and hateful negative feedback.