Questions about New eBay Returns and Refunds

by: Rexford

Marie says "If you have any problems at all, contact Ina and she can put you in contact with me."

Marie, do you have a customer service number?  I will go through you next time.  :)

by: Marie

@Ebay Shill Buster

This blog is not about Guaranteed Delivery.

by: Marie

@Rexford

I just choose to help my fellow Ebay members, whether buyer or seller, whenever I can.  If you choose not to do that, that is your decision to make.  

by: Mongoose

Snapped and Marie,

How does ebay profit from returns?  Easy.  Its the shipping.  Note ebay provides the return label and charges either the buyer or seller for it.  But what exactly does ebay charge, and what does ebay actually pay USPS, Fedex, or UPS for that label?  As a large shipper, ebay is getting a large discount from all 3 shippers.  

Even though Griff lied about it last year, when any ebay seller buys a label through ebay, ebay makes a profit on that label. They, like Amazon or Stamps.com, get a commission for every label sold. It might only be pennies, but how many packages are shipped sing ebay labels every day?  Ebay is buying from USPS at, at least, the Commercial Plus rate, and for all sellers not getting a TRS discount, ebay is making 12-28% from every label sold.  Since most buyers are not TRS, every remorse return label is making profit for ebay. For seller paid returns, every seller not getting the TRS discount is making that same profit for ebay.  

Ebay is making more money on shipping, including FVF on shipping, that they are on FVF on items these days.

by: Marie

@mongoose

Ebay has not and does not always provide a return label.  Sellers can or at least could do their own.  This is a newer development with this new policy that could change things to be as you describe.  But LONG before this new policy people spoke as if Ebay somehow profited off returns.

But I get what you are saying and even though Ebay may see some increased profits from return labels, they still lose a lot of money in sales with the refunding of FVFs.  Ebay will make more money with less returns.  That is just a fact.

by: 1st Armored Div. 1971-1973

I read those ebay statements 3 or 4 times. I do not understand them. They are about as clear as MUD.

by: eXtinctBay

If eBay does not make money from returns, they certainly do act like this is a source of income.

Case In Point: I just had a remorse return request from someone who did not read simple details (which were spelled out in BOTH the item title AND description).

Since it was a less than $10 item, rather than point out the mistakes the buyer made, I just simply authorized the return with no other response. A couple of weeks later, they buyer sent me a positive feedback and did not send the item back- guess it was more trouble than it was worth.

Over 5 weeks later, I am still receiving e-mails from eBay, such as ''Did You Receive The Returned Item Yet??'', and ''The Item Has Been Shipped. Please Issue The Refund Soon''.

There is no record of any tracking number or communication from the buyer that they have sent or will still be sending the item back. But the return remains on my list as ''Delivered'', and to ''Issue Refund''.

So, yes, it seems that eBay encourages returns. It goes beyond just good customer service. And the motive has to be somehow money driven. Not to the extent in which @Mongoose describes- they do not make more money on return shipping than FVF. Not even remotely close. But they do profit at least a bit from mailing labels.

by: pace306

eBay makes money hand over fist on returns, so does paypal.

But theres more to it then that.

eBays push on returns is intertwined with Paypal and its quest to avoid Chargebacks. Thats why when eBay gives people 5 days to return items  -%99 of the time it ends up being more then 5 - simply so that they dont have to dont have to tell a buyer NO.

eBay makes money on the label itself, as does Paypal (they keep the 30 cents charge on the cc processing).

Yes they loose the FVF - but they would loose that anyway on a return - thats NOT part of the caluculations.

eBays goal is to keep the buyer happy - especially at the seller expense.

To those who say the rest of us are wrong - everything ELSE oneBay is monitized - why would it be surprising (or wrong) that returns wouldnt be?

by: Marie

@ Pace

My question was how to they make money "hand over fist"?  PP will earn 30 cents on a returned item when if the item was not returned, their fees would be much higher.  The same with Ebay.  While they retain their listing fees [if any], they refund the FVF.  So other than what they may have made off the shipping carrier contracts, what is it that they earn.  What makes Ebay earning money "hand over fist"?  Where is the income coming from?

Possibly you sell in a category that chargebacks are so common this could be true.  For the categories I sell in, they are not common place, even with buyers that want to return something.

But a chargeback affects Ebay to the same extent that a return does.  They will lose the FVF.  It would be PP that could potentially be out other monies on a chargeback since Seller Protection could allow the seller to keep the money while PP still has to fight the chargeback with the CCC.  And that could certainly cost them more money, but that still not not affect Ebay's income.

Yes, Ebay makes money off the shipping label IF the seller prints them through Ebay.  But again, that is a reduced income over what they would have earned if the sale had not been refunded.  As for PP, they keep the 30 cents transaction fee no matter what reason you refund the buyer.  It has nothing to do with the shipping label.

I get it that Ebay wants the buyer to be happy and I had no disagreement with that assessment at all.  I just simply disagree that Ebay is somehow making money on returns whether "hand over fist" or otherwise.  Posters here and on Ebay discussion boards often say this, but as of yet have not come up with a valid explanation on how Ebay is getting all this extra money on returns.

I'm not trying to start a conflict.  I'm trying to understand why so many would make the claim but have no way to explain it.  Shipping labels is not an answer and is clearly still a reduced income over the amount they would receive if the sale went through.

by: pace306

"My question was how to they make money "hand over fist"?

By collecting money - LOTS of it - for doing NOTHING.

Hundreds if not THOUSANDS of returns are processed each day - and in each case eBay and Paypal both keep money for doing NOTHING.

Does that not qualify? Or is it just the words that bother you?

Even - as EVIL as eBay is - it has to "remotely" abide by the State of CA commerce laws - but that DOESNT mean it has to make it easy or even cheap or FAIR to its sellers.

You asked how/why eBay pushes returns ... Answer - theres NO downside.

True they lose the FVFs (although if you read Inas story it seems they have found yet ANOTHER way to steal a sellers funds) but they still make money on the label (that they hide from you - you have NO idea what they charge you or even what the tracking # is) (most small sellers buy the label right from eBay hoping in some slight way it will help them/not get them into more trouble).

So they 1) keep the FVF in some cases 2) make money on the labels 3) paypal makes money on the labels and 4) keeps the 30 cents transaction fees 5) MAYBE if you are lucky - you MAY get back the listing fees too.

eBay HAS to by CA laws allow for returns - so as I said - they arent ALTRUISTIC, they arent kind, they arent anything - just thieves.

EVERYTHING on eBay is monetized - just like this is.

A return happens and YOU are forced to give the buyer back ALL thier money - yet eBay and paypal DONT.

To me (and it may not be to you) ... thats hand over fist - since eBay isnt loosing 1 cent - they just arent GAINING the FVFs.

If they were loosing - would they push returns? Of course not.

I just had a case where eBay ignored the 5 day returns (buyer to send back an item)(fake SNAD) and eBay gave him 9 - 7 business days plus 2 weekend days.

Why?

Cause the return DOESNT really hurt them - they count the sale in their gross totals anyway (shady accounting practices).

You and I will have to agree to disagree here - Ive been here since 1998 and EVERYTHING eBay does has fraud or theft attached - this is no different.

Btw:"Another Case of eBay Profiting from a 'Glitch'" is exactly SPOT on.

"eBay policy states: "You're responsible for final value fees whether you complete a transaction with a buyer or not."  REALLY - why ??????

"In a few circumstances, however, you may be eligible for a final value fee credit."  Oh HOW NICE AND MAGNANIMOUS.

Theft is theft PERIOD

by: Marie

@Pace

OK, apparently there isn't going to be a straight answer to my question.  Your explanation is not a real one as they lose far more $$ than they gain.  Simple math shows you that.  They make far more money if the transaction happens and no return and/or refund is involved.

While I don't like that Ebay is not upfront about how much they make off a shipping label, they aren't the only ones.  I'm not aware of any other site that provides online labels that release that information.  So Ebay is not alone in this particular subject.

"... they count the sale in their gross totals anyway (shady accounting practices)."  What?  This is a normal accounting function and in no way is it shady.  The word "gross sales" has a meaning and it doesn't mean Net Sales.  

I'm not sure why you see the importance of telling me again when you started selling on Ebay.  What does that have to do with anything?  Are you suggesting that I lack experience or longevity on Ebay?  Otherwise, why are you stating it again?

by: Barbbie

A development,
one of the items auto accepted (that I would have lost the most on) was closed by ebay due to the return was not mailed back.
They gave them 17 days but better than the 2 months they give the rest of the returns.
The other states shipped for at least a week now. Have not received it back yet.

by: pace306

Marie :)

with all due respect - I dont understand what you dont understand.

We (on this) will simply NEVER agree.

I explained what I meant - if you dislike my choice of words - thats fine. Il use 1980's Dire Straits language "money for nothing and your chicks for FREE".

eBay HAS to allow some kind of returns - its CA state law. That they have to return the FVFs MUST/SHOULD take place since there was NO SALE.

Its not altruistic, its not anything - its quid pro quo. eBay makes money on sales - if theres NO SALE - they MUST forfeit any profits from it. Whether or not they can charge a service fee ANYWAY is another issue - thats the part B here.

eBay isnt LOOSING, they just arent GAINING (the ill gotten FVF on shipping - assuming the sale went through).

So when a return happens:

1) eBay gets to look like they care about buyers since they FORCE the seller to eat the loss (be it fake SNADS or any OTHER part of the sale) - thats enrichment - illegal enrichment

2) eBay makes money on the label - they lost the sale put STILL make money on the return part of the transaction. If they REALLY wanted to make returns work - why not sell the label AT COST. If one is TRULY interested in helping - making eBay a better place - then on THIS ONE THING - "do the RIGHT thing. And why not SHOW the label? Why is it hidden? Why does a seller get a defect if the buyer claims "they cant print out that label" (even if its eBay supplied?) Why? cause its a racket - the WHOLE thing is a racket - its DAMN the seller all the way.

3) Paypal make money on your purchase of the label and then keeps the 30 cent transaction fee.

In short - EVERYONE is making/getting good on the "magic returns process" - and its all unfair and wrong - from start to finnish.

Im not sure what you dont understand - and it seems that "you will go down with the ship on this" to the very end - INSISTING that we are all wrong on this and that POOR EBAY is taking a loss since theres no FVF for them - well there SHOULDNT be any - since there was NO SALE (in the case of a return)

As for my explaining to you how and what my background is - its so that you understand that Im not some chump from down the block. Im not some guy just making comments "just because". Ive been in purchasing for $100 million dollar companies - and sometimes - when you reply (and I DONT think you are doing anything in a bad way at all) it comes off preachy and its as if you are lecturing "us children".

Im no child .Ive worked for 47th street photo, 6th ave electronics, Tristate Camera and many OTHER large places - handling LOTS of other peoples monies and setting policies for their retail stores. I FULLY understand how this business works - and Ive been a seller here and and on other sites for MANY years. Ive dealt with Apple, IBM, Compaq, Panasonic, Nintendo, Nikon and many, many others. I FULLY understand returns, restocking fees, and due to having 2 lawyers and 3 accountants in my family (one who worked for NBC and set up 2 Olympic villages - I understand HOW BASIC ACCOUNTING WORKS.

I looked at eBays 10k statement - they count sales - even returns as completed sales. Returned sales ARENT income or sales - and yes it IS sleezy and against the law to claim you made sales WHEN YOU DIDNT.

I dont know what you or anyone here does - its not my business.

Im here to try and deal with the INSANITY and ILLEGALITIES that eBay foists on sellers 24/7, and I thank Ina and David for providing us this space to do so.

It SEEMS that we only harp on eBay 24/7 - but its DIRECTLY because of the bad behavior that they create ON PURPOSE.

Honestly - I wish I had MORE of a choice and could tell eBay to go "drop dead" but I cant. Amazon gates MANY brands and if I want to stay and continue to sell these items - I need an alternate place.

I (shamefully) USED to be an eBay cheerleader. I sang their praises from the roof tops. Buying and selling on eBay was as addictive as crack and I enjoyed it.

That was until eBay started in with its games, with its fake VERO lies, with its forcing me to eat returns for no reason, making me take losses "just because". THAT was where the game changed. I had to threaten to SUE them and the other company (Skullcandy) to make the harassment stop. It cost me money and time - time that wasnt needed - and its gone down hill from there.

Im here IN SPITE of them - I wont let them try and run me off - but tn appreciate eBay hidding my listings because I wont do 30 or 60 day returns. I pay for my listings - I DEMAND they be shown 24/7/365. I know they can -  they just dont want to.

Its irrelevant and immaterial what "the so called industry does" since the comparisons are UNTRUE. You DONT SELL on Amazon, you fulfill - theres NO REASON smaller sellers have to abide by these kinds of rules just because the idiots in San Jose think its funny or even fair.

Yes its eBays sandbox, but I dont have to like it - just figure out a way to live with it. I accept that my "Partner" is a criminal organization - but sometimes you have to lie down with the dogs - theres just no other choice.

You and I may or may not agree on this or on other topics - but I still respect you and your opinions - even when we dont see eye to eye on them.

by: Marie

Gross sales are just that.  The total amount you had in sales, no matter what happened to the sale down the road.  There are also deductions to that which will show on a financial statement.  Such as returns, refunds, discounts etc.  Then you arrive at Adjusted Gross Income.  That is the real sale figure.

After that you deduct all your other expenses for conducting business to then arrive at Net Income.  This is ALL normal accounting and not specific to Ebay at all.

Returns and refunds are part of doing business everywhere.  Whether on the internet or in a physical building.  There is no doubt of that.  But the theory of Ebay making money "hand over fist" because of returns is just not supported by the numbers.

Yes they make money on the shipping labels.  Of course they do.  They are a business providing the service of a third party.  Of course that third party is going to pay Ebay to offer their services.  If you were the business offering their services, you'd want to be paid too.  There is nothing wrong with this.

But making money on the shipping label is LESS than they would make if the sale had gone through without a return or refund.  That is simple math.  This is my ONLY point.  I'm not defending Ebay or saying anything about anything else to do with the process.  I don't like Ebay's process any better than anyone else, but that is NOT what I'm trying to discuss.  All these other points you bring in isn't what I was trying to say at all.

I get it, you feel that Ebay's income off the labels create a larger income for them than does a completed transaction.  While I don't agree with that, I get it that this is your position.  

IMHO we are getting no where here and we will just move forward to some other subject.

by: pace306

You cany count GROSS numbers as sales growth - since they didnt happen. Gross is just that - and thats the number(s) that eBay uses to tell anyone that cares - and thats a precious few - that they are doing MORE business - when its simply not true.

You cant count the reduction in the TRS percentage as growth either - even if it means you have more money since its not "new income" - you are just clawing back money that you promised to give people and then reneged.

eBay doesnt "just" have a returns program. Theres nothing wrong with taking things back (having that program) - but on eBay its ACTIVELY encouraged and %99 off the loss comes from sellers.

No one can argue the fact - since even TRINTON will tell you that not only does eBay have a returns policy that they DONT follow, they routinely create NEW secret rules that are made up on the fly.

NO ONE needs 60 days, no one even needs 30 - its just "cause AMAZON does it" - which is complete and utter tripe. Sellers arent the people who warranty items. If you iphone works when you get it - and it works for the first week - then that SHOULD be enough. If it breaks after that - thats what APPLE is for, not some seller in Wisconsin.

"Yes they make money on the shipping labels.  Of course they do.  They are a business providing the service of a third party." Who asked them to get involved to begin with? Who asked THEM to be judge jury and executioner?  If you cant be impartial then dont create programs that you make money off and then be one sided  Thats what the MOB does - its called extortion.

No we wont agree on this - but I still respect your position and your knowledge on lots of things.

The real question is - how long till eBay unveils the next theftacular plan to steal from its sellers?

by: Marie

@barbbie

Thank you for the update.  I have no idea why your older returns took so long to time out.  Mine always did at about 31 days or very close to that if they buyer did not respond again to the claim.  But good to know that the newer system responds faster.

I'm still waiting.  While Ebay did not provide me with the tracking number, on the link in the email received regarding the return, it shows that the buyer has not yet shipped the item back yet.  Per the email they have until November 17th to put it in the mail.  

by: Barbbie

I can finally see the tracking no. on the one I am waiting on. Buyer did not drop it off at the PO until yesterday so guessing the tracking no. does not show until accepted in mail.

by: toolguy

5 days no Marijuana!

I'm getting a real job at Northrup on the B-21 program.

$75 an hour

My eBay days are now numbered. . .

by: LasVagueness

Congratulations toolguy!