eBay Drops Bombshells in New User Agreement

by: Basset

Most long time sellers who are still on eBay are there because the rewards at eBay outweigh the rewards for their category found on other sites.

eBay is what it is - most sellers on this site don't have any illusions.  If eBay provides the anticipated income, people stay. If not, they won't.



Some on this site have compared eBay to an abusive spouse situation (not pointing only at Annie, I've made the same comparison myself in the past, so have others).  In the real world, sometimes the abused spouse chooses to stay after given a rundown of the choices they have.  They make an informed decision that they feel is best for them, based on their current situation. Usually, to criticize them does NOT help them.

If this were a real life scenario, and divorced has occurred, what would be the point of expending energy to continually look backwards & return  to hate on the spouse left behind.  To tell the old spouse how horrible they are? or how wonderful the new spouse is?  Or maybe, with good intentions, to warn others to never get married  : )

But, like a good therapist,  Marie's posts (& many of Annies & others through the years) constructive solutions to work with what ya got are the most useful ones.

by: PowerSeller2007

Ebay will show your item if no asian seller list it. Ebay will show your item if toy r us dont list them.

by: Basset

More on subject:

Putting In writing what has been happening all along can be viewed as a belated admission or viewed as ''in your face'' truth.  Either way - it is in writing.  
eBay changes tend to be bi-polar for me as I look at them as both a seller & a buyer.

The automated refund:
I always seem to get items that were not as described or damaged in small clusters - it won't happen for a long time, then several in a row. With new sellers, you never know what their thinking is when you contact them about an issue. So, it may be a good thing that they learn up front that they are responsible to describe their item accurately. It all depends on how eBay uses this, but I'd rather just return a bad item than open a case.


I still wonder if the automated refunds are connected to the ''Business Policies'' that will roll out for everyone at some point.

August issue Power Up states: ''Beginning later this year, all sellers will be automatically opted in to business policies. Next year, business policies will become the standard way to manage all your shipping, payment, and return policies.''


Not returning items but refunding:
That should be the sellers call in most cases. Damaged items like spilled soap or lotion in a dripping package, yeah I can see a no return situation there. I've had that happen, but the seller was on top of it.


Visibility:
Some items might as well be invisible. Bad blurry photos, Lack of description, etc… likely from inexperienced sellers.  If eBay is not charging them a fee, it may be a blessing for buyers that those listings be replaced in search by a seller's items that feature good photos & description.  But I do  think the seller should be notified somehow that their listing has problems so they can learn from it & quit repeating the same mistakes.

by: Marie

@annie

I have said many times on many blogs / threads here that what works for one seller may not work for another.  I never presume that what works for me will work for others.

Simply my point was that just about everything covered in the announcement has been in existence for a long time.  While they may not have known about it, it apparently didn't cause them great problems.  But now they know about it and some are saying they are going to leave.  My question is a simple one.  Why?  If they haven't been a problem before, why are they suddenly going to be a problem now?  The only thing that has changed is that they are now aware of these things.

To me, if it is having no net affect on their business, it makes no sense to leave just because of the announcement.  Now of course this is different if it is impacting a seller significantly.  You have got to adjust and do what is best for your business.

"But the fact that they stated it doesn't make it any more palatable or right."  Oh I didn't state or suggest that, nor would I have.  I haven't even discussed that side of the matter.  Do I think it is right, that would be a big fat NO with the exception of the changes to the BPP.  Those seem reasonable to me.

"Also, the fact that it's the ''new member default'' is a strong indication that it will eventually become the ''ALL member default''"  I'm not as confident of that as you are.  Sure it could happen, but Ebay will first need to figure out what they do with drop shippers and large to diamond sellers that have their own return employees, processes and policies.  EBay's policy as currently written won't work for these types of sellers.  So if it were to be forced upon sellers, they could lose many if not most of the sellers they so often protect.

For the record and I do not think the things covered in this recent announcement are "little things", not that you said that came from me.  I'm just saying I view these as important issues especially the search stuff.

@thekolset

I'm unsure of what you feel they got caught at.  None of the statements in the announcement are new except to the UA.  Everything with the exception of the BPP changes have been previously stated by Ebay, they just never put it in the UA.  The subjects may be new to you, and that is NOT a problem, but that doesn't change the fact that they have been around for a long time.

Not all rule changes affect all sellers in the same way.  Some don't affect them at all and others it is huge.  I am not abused, blind, naïve, or any other negative or degrading label that some may like to put on a seller the chooses to stay on Ebay.  I am very aware of my surroundings as are many other sellers on Ebay.  It wasn't right for you to stay on Ebay and I respect that.  

@xander

"To say “people are overreacting “or it’s been this way for a long time, what’s the excitement all about now that it’s in writing is nothing more than accepting ebay’s terms..." That is what it may mean to you, but it is not what it meant to me when I typed it or does it mean that to me now.  I said NOTHING about "accepting" what they wrote.  Up until earlier in this post I didn't even offer my opinion on that.  My state was meant exactly in the way I originally stated it.  They have been doing this stuff for a long time, it is just now that they are adding it to the UA and people are getting upset.  Why weren't they as upset a long time ago when they started doing this stuff?  

Nobody needs to "justify" why they stay on Ebay to anyone.  It is each seller's choice to do so and they only answer to themselves.  The opposite is true for those that decide to leave.  

by: Marie

@mindelec

They have stated it BEFORE.  You may have missed it, but it has been stated before.  That is all I'm saying.  The only new thing here is that they are putting it into the UA.

by: Anonymous Annie

--- ''The only thing that has changed is that they are now aware of these things.''

Yes! Absolutely! Sometimes that's all it takes. A good dose of reality can be very sobering, and can make someone take a good hard look at things. A splash of ice-water in the face can really wake-up someone!

Instead of living in ignorant bliss, many sellers are waking up and critically evaluating whether or not eBay is the place for them.

I'm certain that there's a subset of vulnerable sellers who are convinced that the ''unofficial'' policies would never-in-a-million-years be thrust upon them. They feel that those are the horror stories that happen to the ''other guy'' and probably because the other guy somehow had-it-coming.

But seeing it in print... officially... unashamedly... it kinda puts a whole new perspective to it. No longer it it some mystery-policy out there in the ether. No longer is it a ''ghost-story'' that gets told and re-told. When it's something that's anecdotal and that we hear about ''a-friend-of-a-friend''... those things can be easily dismissed as the rantings and ravings of a disgruntled seller.

Now it's REAL!

It really doesn't matter if it's been that way all along. And the fact that it *has* been that way all along isn't really an acceptable excuse for eBay's behavior. What eBay is doing is wrong. It's wrong, wrong, wrong... there's just no two ways about it!

by: gotta love it

The last time I checked it was optional to sell on eBay. Stop subjecting yourself to this torture. No one should have to run a business under these types of terms and conditions. This type of behavior is corporate America at its finest.

by: Anonymous Annie

[Oops... meant to hit ''Preview'']

--- ''To me, if it is having no net affect on their business, it makes no sense to leave just because of the announcement.  Now of course this is different if it is impacting a seller significantly.  You have got to adjust and do what is best for your business.''

Yes! I couldn't agree more. ~ Everyone needs to do what's best for their situation, for their category, for their product base, and for their customer base. Everyone has a different comfort-level, tolerance-level and risk-level.

[The end. Pressing ''Post'' now and meaning it this time.] :-)

by: Marie

You are assuming that someone is trying to "excuse" EBay's behavior.  I certainly could have overlooked reading that, as there is a lot on this thread, but I don't think anyone stated or suggested it.

Ebay is very arrogant.  Somehow they feel this behavior is just fine, when it is not.  But it is rather scary that they apparently feel it is OK.  Fees are paid, services should be rendered.  To do anything less than that is wrong and should be illegal.  Especially since they have some top secret complicated formula for determining this.

Now one MIGHT and I really stress might, be able to overlook the search issues if the searches were accurate.  But they aren't, they are no where near accurate.  The searches return stuff that was not in the keywords entered or anywhere even close to them sometimes.  And I absolutely hate it when I type in something and it changes what I've typed, I correct it and it changes it again.  It is then a battle of wills.  Very annoying.

by: Map

The case for many small sellers is the fact that we have started a legal business from scratch selling on solely ebay.

All of my investments and sales have gone back into my ebay business because i took ebay at it's word and advertising that i could build a business selling on ebay. The cost of retail space as a brick and mortar store is not possible at this time but a shipping center from my property is and has been achieved.

Like many of you I am TRS. offer free shipping and same business day shipping and so on.

My complaint with ebay is that they limited my visibility in the ebay search engine and it has crippled my ability to function a business at all on the web.

My business model selling used auto parts requires me to have a minimum crew of 6 employees to function on ebay. At that level i could add 30-60 new items per business day, the capacity to ship 100 items per day. and the ability to pull used parts from salvaged vehicles daily. Along with washing these parts, re inspecting them for top quality. and then photograph and store them in my very expensive shelving system so we can quickly find the part to ship it.

Giving the ebay customer the best service and the best quality used OEM part was my goal. Also it was out of fear because having any returns is bad for business.

What ever ebay did to my account in JULY-September 2012 is still top secret and they will not give me an answer but we lost nearly all our traffic to our listing and sales have been decimated.

I did $162K in 2012
2013 has been a dismal 36K.

It was very hard for me financially in 2012 because i was re investing all my sales back into inventory and employees and when ebay pulled the plug on me in August 2012 i contacted ebay to see what was going on. From then on it has been nothing from ebay but telling me to tweek my listings.

i am so frustrated and broke and in debt.

It is worse than being fired by ebay because they bled me dry month after month.

Those bastards have no soul. its all about getting your $.

by: Massachusets Howler

Everybody knows that this was happening but it is really scarry to see ebay think they can put this in print- and it will be alright- they are CRAZY and THERE is LIABILITY all over this.
- How can we even RESEARCH PRICES if we know that widget a was shown in search and the same widget, widget B, was not shown.
I want to STRANGLE JD!
And now ebay paid cheerleaders are here too- look at the seller meet-up thread!
Jd needs to be publically strangled. Call the FTC phone number and file a quick 5 minute report folks- I just did it- VERY easy.
MH

by: Anonymous Annie

--- ''You are assuming that someone is trying to ''excuse'' EBay's behavior.''

No... ''excuse'' is the wrong word... I often type fast and click submit without proof-reading and without taking the time to choose the most appropriate word.

I think a more accurate description would be that it appears (to me) as though you and others are trying to marginalize this and characterize this policy (and others) it as being inconsequential, simply because it's a policy that's been in effect for a long time already.

When people roll-their-eyes at the anger and outrage of others... it has the potential to come-off as being insulting. Sellers have good reason to be outraged, and just because they may be a little late in realizing what's going on... and just because it (quite literally) has to be spelled-out for them... that's no reason that seasoned sellers should say things that appear to be dismissive.

Many are fortunate to be in the situation they're in... one where only a few eBay policies have the potential to be (merely) annoying. Others aren't so lucky and eBay policies (both old and new, official and unofficial) are quite often devastating!

I include myself in the fortunate group, during my time at eBay there were a few annoyances, but nothing that was earth-shattering or devastated my supplemental income. ~ Nevertheless, I was also firmly rooted in the ''low-tolerance-level'' group. I could plainly see what was going on around me, and I had no illusions about the fact that what was happening to ''the other guy'' could one day happen to me.

I'm doubly-fortunate because I was able to (eventually) take action that allowed me to get the h-e-double-ell out of Dodge.

by: thekloset

@marie.
my comment was related to one by comet..i should have quoted.
sorry for any confusion. i'm pretty clear on what ebay is and what they aren't.
and transparency isn't exactly their strong suit.

by: Marie

@ANNIE

'...I often type fast and click submit without proof-reading and without taking the time to choose the most appropriate word."  Oh how I can relate to that !!!!  My fingers get faster than my brain.  LOL

No I'm not marginalizing anything.  I think I was pretty clear.  Originally my only question was why so many people were have adverse reactions to something that has been going on for a long time.  Stuff that Ebay has previously stated they were doing.  That isn't marginalizing anything.  If they were so upset by it, why didn't they respond this way when they started doing it or when they started saying they were doing it.  That was my question.

That has NOTHING to do with whether what they are doing is harmful or not.  I didn't offer my opinion on that until you asked, which was only back a handful of posts.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it.  There is no need to read anymore into my questions than what I type.  

And in my post a few back when I offered my opinion of these things, I think I was pretty clear on that too.

But one thing to keep in mind.  These are NOT changes with the exception of someof what was announced for the Buyer Protection Policy.  These are existing practices that are just being placed into the UA. They have been in existence for quite awhile now.  So if they weren't a problem for you before, they are likely not going to be a problem for you in the future.

For me, I think they are hiding me again.  Come Sept. 1, my sales dropped dramatically.  August was very good.  August is usually my slowest month of the year.  This time it was almost the best.  Go figure.

by: Al G

I just wonder who the potential audience of this update is.

I realise that us small potato sellers immediately ass-u-me that JD&cohorts are after US.

What if it is the Guandong crowd? The purveyors of the cheap crap that Americans have come to love and want to return once they discover that "hey - this IS crap".

Think about it - those buyers are maybe 90% of eBay's customer base and eBay does not want to piss them off, since Amazon is just a click away.

And if there is "collateral damage" vis-a-vis with the smaller sellers - Oh, Well!

Just my tuppence.

Peace, love and Cherry Garcia.

by: Anonymous Annie

--- ''Originally my only question was why so many people were have adverse reactions to something that has been going on for a long time.''

I understand that you weren't being judgmental or dismissive... my response was an emotional one because your completely logical and rational analysis of the situation comes across as having little regard for those who are just now beginning to understand what's going on.

I honestly admire you, your intelligence, your ability to prioritize and compartmentalize, to remain calm... as well as your success. I do realize that my own words often come across as being sharp and thorny, so I hope you understand that I don't mean anything personal about it.

by: Tula

@Al G: That's a very good point. I wouldn't mind seeing those sellers get marginalized. Unfortunately, we little guys usually get steamrolled as well, whenever eBay implements something new.

@marie: just one remark: I don't think all or even most sellers are aware of the previously-unofficial ebay policies. Here at ECB, we only see a very small percentage of sellers. A lot of sellers don't bother with blogs or forums, so they may be unaware of these changes at eBay. Sure, they may wonder about their poor sales, but they may just assume it's for economic or other reasons. A lot of eBay sellers are not as invested in their businesses as we are or may be too busy to bother with following blogs and forums. So, I can see a lot of them getting upset at such wording in the new TOS, since they may not be aware that this sort of thing has been going on for a while. For them, it's like getting slapped upside the head with a dead fish (sorry, I heard that phrase recently and couldn't resist :-).

I agree, though, that we all have to analyze this in the context of our own business models and see if it is going to affect us or not. We have the official information now, so it's our turn to decide what we do about it.

by: Anonymous Annie

--- ''For me, I think they are hiding me again.''

Ugh! I couldn't live like that. I have enough gray hair and wrinkles as it is...

The only good thing (and ''good'' isn't the correct word) is that you KNOW what the problem is... and it has NOTHING to do with the way you do business, nothing to do with your prices, merchandise, or customer service.

by: Tiffee Jasso

I don't think it is a matter of we have known or suspected that Ebay has pulled the plug on small sellers and some larger ones also. What has changed is they have finally admitted it and one now has viable proof. That is the difference. You may suspect a neighbor is robbing you, but that won't fly with the police or courts. When you catch them in the act then you can prosecute. Big difference of what can and cannot be done once the suspect has confessed. Ebay right now today is out there convincing folks to spend their hard earned money on their Chinese wholesale market and build their business on Ebay. That is fraud. Ebay knows up front they are going to limit the sales of those folks, hold the funds and give the new seller very little or no visibility. One can no longer work to build a business on Ebay and anyone that has been there for any length of time knows that. Last month we all know they pulled the plug on their Drop Off Consignment sellers who were forced to invest heavily, if they wanted the job. Property had to be leased, the seller had to be bonded, insured, etc. Acts like this would be considered by any court or jury to be fraud and the equivalent of  con games, if it was anyone but Ebay. There is no excuse for the prejudice and outright discrimination that Ebay has been practicing since certain parties have taken over the helm.  

by: Marie

@ Annie

I always respect what you have to say as I have learned much from you over the time I've been reading this site.  And a little nudge by others help keep the brain cells functioning and doesn't allow moss to grow.

And I too am researching ways to move my little business to greener pastures.  But there really aren't a lot of alternatives taking traffic into consideration and I can not afford to go with no income for awhile to build things up.  So I need to do a gradual move to maintain my income level or get it back the way it should be, depending on how you look at it.

@tiffee

No they have admitted it before.  The difference is they are adding it to the UA.