Ina Steiner EcommerceBytes Blog
News and insight focusing on ecommerce.
by Ina Steiner, Editor of EcommerceBytes.com
Tue June 12 2012 20:41:06

Do Fraudsters Like eBay's Push for One-Day Handling?

By: Ina Steiner

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A longtime seller wrote in with a report about eBay's new requirement that Top Rated Sellers ship items within 24 hours. He said he was told by a low-level source inside PayPal that the payments provider is not happy about the new eBay Marketplaces policy because of a rise in chargebacks caused by an increase in fraudulent transactions.

The seller wrote that, according to his source, "since eBay put the new policy in place, scammers have decided that they can order goods, get them shipped same or next day, receive them a few days later and vanish.... then a few days later come the chargebacks from the legit card holders. Its increased now, because now eBay "forces" you to ship within 24 hrs to maintain your dealer rating(s) and a large number of dealers now ship within that time frame."

While that's an unconfirmed report, the seller raised an interesting issue. Is it better to wait 24 hours before sending items to give PayPal's fraud detection system adequate time to sniff out scammers who are using stolen accounts? Especially in certain categories, such as electronics, jewelry and high-end designer clothes and accessories?

It is certainly true that eBay places certain restrictions on short-duration auctions to combat fraudulent sellers. For example, to offer a 1-day listing, you must have a Feedback score of at least 10, and sellers have reported that they are restricted from listing certain designer clothing in the auction format for less than 5-day duration.

Let us know if you've been receiving a larger amount of chargebacks for unauthorized usage than usual and if you think eBay might change its policy in certain high-risk categories.

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by: ebay refugee camp This user has validated their user name.

Wed Jun 13 10:48:53 2012

The poster is absolutely correct that a rise in fraud is due to ebay policies. Credit card companies need more time that 24 hours to be notified of fraud or the theft of a card or a hacked account. It is just like the ebay 100% buyer protection which is also a haven for fraud. Things will not change at ebay because number one, ebay charges their fees as soon as the buyer clicks buy it now or when the auction is over and it does not matter if the seller is paid or not, it does not matter if the buyer is is a fraudulent buyer, nothing matters because ebay gets paid upfront and what happens to the seller after that does not matter. So they will not change anything because JD cannot be wrong.

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by: pace306 This user has validated their user name.

Wed Jun 13 12:15:45 2012

Im the seller that emailed Ina about this issue.

So far Ive had (4) of these transactions - and yes each time I was covered under seller protection and refunded the money and the $25 vig that Paypal charges to do thier job and fight chargebacks ... but its a royal pain to have to stop and clean up Paypals mess all the time.

Amazon gives you 2 days to ship, eBay poorly copies and gives you 1. Amazon hides customers real contact info, eBay does it too.

As usual - as Ming says so well - the ''sweet genius's'' at eBay didnt think this one all the way through.

They never think anything through - and thats the problem. I doubt they care - as Paypal can easily eat the losses, and it doesnt show on eBays books - shareholder concerns :) you know!

Im on a first name, personal basis with my reps in PODA at Paypal ... they see it comming and know - Im not gonna except ONE FREEBAY this yr - I dont care whom I have to sue!

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by: justpassinthru This user has validated their user name.

Wed Jun 13 16:16:28 2012

Marie
I am able to ship my product safely for an average $2.17, including packaging and 1st class USPS postage.

To comply with Ebay's 1-Day Wonder Plan means mandatory Delivery Receipts and to comply with USPS thickness requirements for Delivery Receipt packages required a slightly larger, slightly heavier package.  I researched dozens of alternatives and found a way to package with only a $.10 material cost increase but the lowest possible postage cost for a 2 oz 1st class package with DR is $1.64, which meant my usual $2.17 cost increased to $3.05.

In my very competitive product category, that $.88 price increase moved my listings to a disadvantageous position in low/high searches.

You are correct that other circumstances also contributed to the sales decline, including that my competitors have not chosen to adopt the 1-Day Wonder Plan and that Ebay's ending free auction listings substantially reduced product exposure.  There is no way to know with certainty what proportion of my sales decline resulted exclusively from the 1 Day Wonder price increase but what I do know with certainty is that during the 2 months in which I tried it Ebay's way my sales dropped from an average of 170 units per month to 90 and were still sliding when I pulled the plug.  

The $.88 price reduction made possible by eliminating free shipping and 1-Day DR shipping brought my sales back up to 130 units a month.  My analysis: I experienced a 35% sales decline while trying Ebay's 1 Day Wonder Plan, of which 25% was recovered when I dumped it.

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by: Donkey This user has validated their user name.

Wed Jun 13 17:37:48 2012

Yes the fraudsters will love it.  

There is no way for payment to clear in one day.  Paypal takes 2 or 3 days to notify of a bad payment.

Maybe ebay should take away that stupid oversized seller protection shield and replace it with an equally stupid seller target for the sellers with one day handling.

I am refusing to go with the one day handling because of the risk involved.
No way I am sending a $100 or $200 or $500 worth of items to a brand new bidder with a brand new paypal account.

The electronics, jewelry, and coin sellers are going to be robbed blind.

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This user has validated their user name. by: Marie

Wed Jun 13 19:36:33 2012

@justpassinthru

Not necessarily.  This is a common mistake with this rule.  The rule reads 3/4" thick at SOME POINT [not the entire package] OR [not and, but OR] stiffened.  

So if you want to do the thickness requirement, I use to take a little piece of cardboard and roll it up to about 1" thick and stick it in the envelopes.  You want to make sure it won't crush, so using peanuts and stuff like that isn't an option.  I use to relax, watch TV and roll those little pesky things to get ahead.

Or your package needs to be stiffened.  And again, that doesn't mean the whole package needs to be.  You can put Do Not Bend a few times on the front and the back of the envelope.  Stick about a 2 to 3" piece of cardboard in the package going the height of the package [on a 9 by 12 envelope, that would be the 9" direction] and that will take care of that.  Make sure you cut your cardboard so that the grain [interior baffles] are going horizonatally, it is stronger that way.

It's not a 2 oz package.  1 to 3 oz First Class parcel ships for the same amount, $1.64 via PP and that includes delivery confirmation.  So going from what you are saying, there would be no increase for you.

No, I think you missed my point about the decrease in sales.  During that same timeframe that you feel it is due to the 1 day handling, Ebay has had a host of other problems.  You appear to be stuck on blaming it on the 1 day handling when in fact, it has nothing to do with it.  It's squarely in Ebay's lap, they are having significant search problems and problems with listing visablity.  This has been confirmed by more sellers than I can count.  Just go visit Ebay threads.  Your sales started to recover a little because things are slowing starting to improve.  Again nothing to do with the 1 day handling.

What do you mean that Ebay has ended free auction listings?  I don't understand?  They just had a special a few days ago and I still get the monthly free 50 on my little account.  What are you referring to?

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This user has validated their user name. by: Philip Cohen

Wed Jun 13 20:58:52 2012

I still read auctionbytes blogs but I decided recently to not bother commenting any longer (Ming does a good enough job for both of us); after all, we are here preaching mainly to the converted, sans the few poorly-paid and obvious eBay shills that regularly come to stir the pot. But the arrant nonsense some speak about PreyPal has to be addressed.

Let’s get one thing straight, banks don’t issue credit cards or merchant accounts to users without verifying them and their credit ratings, professionally.

PreyPal, on the other hand, is an unprofessional, utterly clunky “middleman”; if PreyPal sources a buyer’s funds from a credit card, as they do the majority of buyers’ funds, then the owner of a fraudulently used credit card may not know that there is a fraudulent charge on his card until he receives his monthly card statement possibly some month or so later; at that time the card holder is entitled to report the matter and the credit card company will reverse the charge.

Then, like in the Amex/PreyPal nonsense, merchants can’t simply refuse to accept a particular source of funds because they cannot know from where PreyPal is sourcing those funds.

PreyPal may well be convenient for payers online (I have never had a problem with them), but for payees, the risk of credit card fraud via PreyPal is a real and ever present. The fact that it is PreyPal that accepts the credit card payment, not the merchant (who would be responsible if he accepted the card payment directly), and then PreyPal wants the merchant still to accept all the risk is outrageous. But, that will always be the real and ever present risk with all of the “third party” wannabes in the race for “payments processing”.

Anyway it is all approaching the point of being moot, except for sellers on eBay; Visa’s V.me is now up and running (and MasterCard’s version not far away); any off-eBay merchant that accepts PreyPal is simply naïve in the extreme, or simply too small to quality for a real merchant account, and is eventually going to get done over by PreyPal, if they have not already been done so.

It’s time for all online buyers to apply for a truly secure Visa V.me Digital Wallet account, and for all those merchants who can, to get themselves a merchant account with a real bank, otherwise they will never be sure that they are going to get their money, or if they have already got it, whether PreyPal is going to snatch it back from them some time later …

And from another observer of the clunky PreyPal, on eBay’s own forums:

“I just ordered an item [online] from Buy.com. When I completed the “fill in the blanks” stuff, I had a choice of payment. There was the usual charge card form and then three offerings with logos:

Pay by Visa V.me
Pay by Google Checkout
Pay by PayPal

“Funny, isn't it, which one was last. I thought there was some kind of arrangement between eBay and buy.com, a platinum-like anchor store on eBay.”

Funny isn’t it too, which one Buy put at the top of the list; major online retailers apparently are smart enough to distinguish the wheat from the chaff after all. But, the real question is, now that Visa’s V.me is available (MasterCard’s offering still on the way), how much longer will that PreyPal logo continue to appear at all? Any one want to take bets on a time frame?

Goodbye clunky PreyPal, it has not been nice knowing you …

eBay / PayPal / Donahoe: Dead Men Walking

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by: justpassinthru This user has validated their user name.

Wed Jun 13 21:45:36 2012

Maria
I used stiffeners in the package, then and now.  I knew it was not necessary for the entire 6''x9'' envelope to be 3/4'' thick.  So I used a 5'' flexible square foam pad in addition to two 5''x8.5'' stiffeners.  Nonetheless USPS returned an armload of packages, saying they did not meet the requirement for DR.  So I added another 5'' square foam pad, bringing the package to 1'' thick in a 5'' square area. I then received a notification from a USPS depot in another state that the package was not thick enough.  I can talk sense to my local postmaster but cannot talk to every postmaster in the world.

My packages were/are marked Please Do Not Bend in 1'' high letters.

My 2 oz pkgs ship safely now for $.85.  While following Ebay's 1-Day Wonder plan that same product, packaged to satisfy USPS, weighed 2-3 oz but because I had to ship with DR I was forced to ship at the lowest available USPS rate for DR packages, i.e., $1.64.  Do the math: $1.64 is $.79 more than $.85.  Add $.095 for materials and it's a 25% price increase, for which my customers gained nothing.  Ebay and USPS were the only ones that benefited, Ebay from higher FV fees and USPS from shipping the same object at twice the price.

I have an Ebay store.  Store sellers are not eligible for 50 free monthly listings.  During the last quarter of 2011 and first quarter of 2012 Ebay ran many, many free auction listing sales and most weeks I had 1,500 items listed.  The sell-through percentage was very low but I sold 170-200 units per month.

1-Day shipping had nothing to do with my sales decline.  Raising my prices to accommodate it did.  Immediately, emphatically.  When I dumped 1-Day/Free shipping and lowered my prices, my sales improved.  Immediately, emphatically.  The notion that both my pricing changes coincidentally dovetailed a window of irregularity in Ebay's search mechanism isn't credible.  One side of that equation, maybe, but both?  Doesn't pass the stink test.

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by: spirit-of-shiloh This user has validated their user name.

Wed Jun 13 22:21:07 2012

Oh that is something that never crossed my mind? I have even shipped same day if the item was purchased early AM. I do everything feebay asks of me,next day shipping,etc. to keep my TRS. Now I wish we could ship at least 48 hours after a sale.Thanks a lot feebay:(  

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by: Mr. Me This user has validated their user name.

Wed Jun 13 23:56:49 2012

Screw Ebarfs one day handling, I've got a life and dont jump through hoops !!!!!!

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This user has validated their user name. by: Philip Cohen

Wed Jun 13 23:58:59 2012

And an addendum to the previous comment:

Ultimately, if the merchant account-issuing bank at the other end of any fraudulent transaction cannot recover the funds from the merchant from whence the fraudulent charge originated, then that is that bank’s problem for not vetting the merchant well enough.

PreyPal places itself in the same position, of being the merchant entity that “accepts” the credit card payment; why then should PreyPal be entitled to pass this responsibility back onto their user who has at no time any idea of the source of the funds?

In the final analysis, why would any sane person agree to such terms? No one in the regulated world of real retail banking could get away with such a grossly unfair condition—only the atrophying eBafia’s most ugly adopted daughter, PreyPal, apparently—Ugh!

Die, PreyPal, die, and soon ...

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This user has validated their user name. by: basset

Thu Jun 14 07:37:02 2012

I may have to look at how quickly I ship items - Like many, something sells & it is on the way to the buyer later that day.

It never has been a problem, EXCEPT, a while back I had shipped an item within 1 day - THEN got a letter from PayPal that they were investigating the payment, 'don't ship the item'. When I called PP they said I'd PROBABLY be covered under seller protection, unless the buyer felt the item was not as described & opened a case.

So, basically I was paid with a questionable payment prompting PP to investigate the buyer, in the mean time the buyer received the item per tracking, the funds were STILL being held by PP for investigation, I was told to wait a few days to make sure the buyer did not open a case because THEY might be unhappy with the item!!!, finally they released the money after another phone call!
Incredible but true - you just can't make this BS stuff up!

Phil C. - glad you are among the living! I got worried someone from PP tracked you down & made you ''disappear''. I'm sure more than one person on here wondered where you were!

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This user has validated their user name. by: Marie

Thu Jun 14 11:26:04 2012

@justpassinthru

I do understand.  I don't know how long ago you got all those packages returned, but the rule use to be written far more obsurely than it is now. I know I complained and complained a lot to USPS about as it was really confusing. It was never intended to require both, but he old way it was written rather lended itself to that.  But now it is much clearer.  I personally ship a couple hundred or more packages a month, much like you.  I have zero returned.  I know it works and maybe sometime you will be able to get it to work for you.  Possibly this will help.  Straight from the USPS DMM.

Package Services or Parcel Select parcel, the parcel must meet these additional requirements:

a. The surface area of the address side of the parcel must be large enough to contain completely and legibly the delivery address, return address, postage, and any applicable markings, endorsements, and extra service labels.

b. Except as provided in 10.2.2c, the parcel must be greater than 3/4 inch thick at its thickest point.

c. If the mailpiece is a parcel under 401.1.0 and no greater than 3/4 inch thick, the contents must be prepared in a strong and rigid fiberboard or similar container or in a container that becomes rigid after the contents are enclosed and the container is secured. The parcel must be able to maintain its shape, integrity, and rigidity throughout processing and handling without collapsing into a letter-size or flat-size piece.

And here is the link if you'd like to have it for future reference.  This is section 10.2.2

http://pe.usps.com/search/jsp/search/vv_docread.jsp?k2do
ckey=http%3A%2F%2Fpe.usps.com%2Ftext%2Fdmm300%2F503.htm%40PE_DMM300_HTML_5&serverSpec=56.0.145.56:9920&QueryParser=Simple&querytext=%28delivery%3Cand%3Econfirmation%29&dtype=2#hit0

I
know Ebay has made a hot mess of shipping, there is no doubt.  They keep trying to force people working out of a corner in their homes to compete with big box stores with multiple employees.  They have forgotten to celebrate the difference and promote that.

I miss the "IT" campaign.  I loved it.

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This user has validated their user name. by: Ming the Merciless

Thu Jun 14 14:50:46 2012

@ Phil Cohen

It takes a village to destroy a company! One or two people can't do it alone.

You have always offered an enormous amount of insight into shill bidding and PreyPal, and I hope you'll continue to do so.

Don't leave us now! This is where the deep end of genetic pool lives, and we need YOU to help clear out the shallow end on Hamilton Avenue.

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This user has validated their user name. by: Ming the Merciless

Thu Jun 14 15:03:01 2012

@ Marie

"They keep trying to force people working out of a corner in their homes to compete with big box stores with multiple employees.  They have forgotten to celebrate the difference and promote that."

The ebafia/PreyPal monopoly hasn't forgotten at forgotten at all.

On the listing confirmation page, haven't you seen that oh so sweet little thumbnail photo of that adorable family who says ebafia saved their "little family" when one of them got laid off?

Or how about one of PreyPal's newest home page photos? You know, the one with the guy sitting on the floor with all the stuff from his attic, garage, basement he's going to list on ebay?

No, ebay falsely promotes the idea that it welcomes casual sellers when, in fact, it welcomes no sellers except Diamonds and Platinums. The rest of us are just window dressing in ebafia's colossal charade.

Ebafia has transformed itself from a largely user and family friendly marketplace into a corporate hell hole in scammer's paradise.

The image, however, lives on and will continue to live on until every one of us makes a commitment to spread the word every single day.

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by: pace306 This user has validated their user name.

Thu Jun 14 17:21:59 2012

Ming's 1000% right in his posts. People selling the stuff in grannies attic are nothing but fake cardboard cut outs for Wall Street, and the online websites that ''rate'' ecommerce (not Auctionbytes though!).

None of those sites have a clue how eBay and Paypal work, the colusion between the 2 (Paypal outright lies when they tell you they cant read eBay internal seller/buyer emails for example), and the mafia type methods that eBay uses to control what happens on thier selling platform.

The bottom line is that eBay has so little respect for sellers - that they dont even bother trying to hide the lies anymore. When they do sprout up, they become technical errors, or all the sellers that complain are the real thieves (not the scam buyers).

If they want to become Amazon - fine - just be honest about it. Stop the BS, and stop using TRS etc to force 1/2 baked policies on us all.

If anyone (the aforementioned media sites) would read TWICE (where eBay liars feel its safe to spout off) where they tell you in black n white what they plan on doing, you would fall over.

How does a VP of eBay get away with saying (and I quote directly - the profane word was his) ''we don't want eBay to be known as that s_itty auction company anymore'' !?

Between using VERO to violate most of the current US Commerce laws, having Paypal illegally hold your funds, aiding and abetting scammers, not to mention the rest of the crimes eBay tries to do - eBay is nothing like what the average person thinks it is. People like me and others here - who use it to make thier livings have to fight them tooth and nail on every single aspect of the business, each and every day.

Like the rest here - I just want to concentrate on finding great products at great prices and make sales - and not have to spend 1/2 my day fighting to get my money back, arguing with the mentally deficiant VERO people, convincing Paypal to give my back my own money etc.

Well, it wont get any better - and Im doing the best I can to avoid more issues - starting with my own website and concentration on Amazon (FBA).

Just wait till the Amazon like payment plan goes into effect on eBay, they allow even more manufactorers to have premium stores and do Deal of the Day (which is restricted to only the few and the special) and the oncomming allowing of certain US electronics distributors to list thier goods (in order to push even more dealers out), not to mention the authorized dealer tag - which will be mandatory NEXT YEAR (you will HAVE to check a box when create a listing - either yes or no) (guess what happens to the NO's?)!

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This user has validated their user name. by: Philip Cohen

Thu Jun 14 17:52:07 2012

@ pace306,

“Just wait till the Amazon like payment plan goes into effect on eBay,”

And what do you think eBay will then do with the clunky PreyPal? Continue with its off-eBay challenge to Visa / MasterCard / Amex at point-of-sale? LOL, LOL, LOL Oh, my god, I think I am going to die laughing …

No, the German thing is all about the fact that the Germans were not utilizing PreyPal anyway; the Germans aren’t that stupid; anyway, that eBay Payments nonsense will simply accelerate eBay’s ultimate demise …

Only from the home of the headless turkey: the eBay executive suite …

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by: pace306 This user has validated their user name.

Thu Jun 14 18:57:19 2012

Philip

eBay is doing its best to seperate eBay transactions that use Paypal with ''the rest'' of the transactions that Paypal processes. Even Paypal as crooked as they are, know that eBay sends them ''problems''.

eBay USA wants to take the aforementioned payments from Paypal and internalize them - as Amazon does. (Everything Amazon does is copied by eBay).

It accomplishes:

1) lowering Paypal's risk factors and raising its profits. Im sure that eBay bigwigs own a majority of Paypal shares.
2) controling the payments controls general fee payments, enforces returns, forces shipping time tables, and other aspects of eBay. They arent doing it ''just because''
3) The lawsuits for things like Paypal money holds etc will vannish/be discontinued when eBay ''shows the court that the ''errors'' in payment holds were fixed and are being taken seriously by eBay.'' Since Paypal wont be doing the direct processing for eBay sales - those suits and the negative publicity goes away.

When you fill out a Paypay survey they ALWAYS ask where the transaction came from - the question is there to meter ''where the problems come from''.

I do expect eBay to adopt the Amazon payment plan. They said they were going to and it makes sence from every angle. All the eBay CS people have to be trained to say is ''Im sorry sir/madam, you did XXX wrong so we cant give you your funds...thank you''  

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This user has validated their user name. by: Philip Cohen

Thu Jun 14 19:41:31 2012

@pace306,

I’m sorry but you’ve missed me. PreyPal is a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay. Whichever collects the payments. “eBafia” or “PreyPal”, absolutely nothing would be different except for the pocket in the same pants into which the funds have always gone.

The fact is PreyPal now has little future outside of eBay now that Visa’s V.me online gateway is up and running (see Buy.com), except of course for the little merchants who can’t get a merchant account with a real bank and/or simply enjoy being abused by the PreyPal …

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This user has validated their user name. by: Ming the Merciless

Thu Jun 14 23:43:46 2012

My earlier message should have read:

It takes a village to raze a corporation!

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by: Thekewlshop This user has validated their user name.
Web Site

Sat Jun 16 01:29:31 2012

Related but I often get huge wholesale order requests by email - the ones that are just too good to be true. Each time I mention I'll only accept Paypal and the prospective purchasers grumble a bit and then make some excuse that they can't get Paypal in their country and then decline their order requests. These are scammers for sure. What worries me is I'm never sure what to do about it. I've had a few from Indonesia and some from Ivory Coast.    

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