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Sat Feb 20 2010 13:10:13

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

By: Ina Steiner

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As we reported in AuctionBytes last week, PayPal is changing some policies. It sent an email to users on Friday notifying them of the policy updates that go into effect on March 10, 2010. One of the provisions takes away an important protection for sellers:

The following will be added to section 11.7 (newly numbered 11.5) as an additional example of transactions not eligible for seller protection: "Items that are not shipped to the recipient's shipping address on the Transaction Details Page. If you originally ship the item to the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for seller protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is controlled by the buyer."

I've received several emails from readers, one outlined his concerns about this specific change. "Unfortunately, this new policy will negate any Seller Protection if the Buyer has changed addresses... AND filled-in the USPS Change-of-Address paperwork... BUT NOT updated their address with PayPal." He included a list of reasons why buyers may have temporary addresses, and wrote, "PayPal's new policy puts Sellers at risk for things that are beyond our control AND beyond our ability to determine."

Be sure to read the new policy changes in full on the PayPal website.




Comments (37) | Permalink

Readers Comments

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: sassi

Sat Feb 20 13:49:19 2010

Why would you expect anything more from paypal. Even the government is scared to investigate them.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: JAV

Sat Feb 20 14:54:17 2010

Some of the Boardies have suggested to Rubber Stamp shipments with DO NOT FORWARD.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: whatever.

Sat Feb 20 18:25:34 2010

thebrewsnews.com blog has a VERY good post up on this issue.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: eBuyer Feedback

Sat Feb 20 19:11:11 2010

The fact of the matter is that PayPal has always ruled this way under this circumstance.  The only difference is they've now clarified it in their rules.

I'm guessing this was done to protect PayPal from potential lawsuits.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: Seller Unity

Sat Feb 20 19:13:15 2010

Even if the parcel is stamped ''DO NOT FORWARD'' do you think the carriers will pay attention or honor such a request? Government employee's are not known for doing more then they absolutely have to. Considering the fact we have sent parcels with big labels reading ''DO NOT BEND'' and the carrier bends it in half to fit the mail box anyway, I've little faith they will return to sender because of a stamp or label.

I think we'll have to go straight to the big wigs at the USPS to see what they say on the matter. I'd suspect if we tell them that more sellers will be switching to alternative shipping carriers to comply with paypal policy, they might be willing to at least listen.

Isn't selling on line fun? When I started doing this it was a laid back way to have a part time job to supplement income. Now this part time job is full time with overtime and has become very stressful as I try to jump through the next smaller diameter flaming hoop. The venues, payment processor companies and shipping carriers have all grown fat and greedy while the sellers have become leaner, we are now nothing more then expendable, low cost slaves to the distribution marketplace.

Each policy change brings with it a higher risk and lower margin for the independent seller, another piece is chipped off the block with their chisel.

What we need is representation or a union of sorts so we can have a voice as well as show our dissatisfaction and possibly organizing a strike., a real solid supported strike though. Could you imagine the affect if sellers had a common agreement to close down for a number of days? All of those providers would feel the pinch. As it is now, we're just a bunch of powerless independent complainers.

Unless we get lucky and they bury themselves with all their self serving policies, don't expect things to improve. It will continue to worsen until there is little to no profit to be made and sellers give up to seek employment elsewhere. It's a matter of time before this become epidemic, it's been in effect for a while. If you can't smell the stench yet, it's time to get your nose checked for blockage.

Sellers need a voice. It would serve our purpose if we could find some way to unit to build and protect our interests as sellers, we could then say we are fighting back.

Eventually, our voice could then be heard by wall street as well as all the offending parties.

QUESTION- are there any real sellers who know of a good lawyer(s) who would be willing to over see a sellers member site? They would have to be willing to support the site without initial pay. Perhaps over time, money would become available for legal council but it should start off with free representation to guide the members and help them avoid making any big mistakes as they form and take action. Perhaps their payment could come from a hefty class action suit that could benefit all the members including the counselors?

I suggest we start off by building a site/blog where sellers can join and become members to voice our thoughts. One place where we have access to each other for opinions and to plan a seller strategy. It could be totally anonymous where we keep our seller identities private. Just like e-bay keeps the sellers DSR's private, we can keep our identities private until it is required otherwise. Once our membership become strong we could organize a our first strike of many. We could lay a hurt on them for a change! They are already hammering us down, we can afford the effort to return a few blows of our own.

NOTE- To the spy's and ignorant buyers who post anything displaying negativity towards sellers uniting and building a membership for their greater good, I have only two words for you... piss off!
It's as obvious as a heart attack who's interests you serve and if you're not with us or you're in the way. There is no reason sellers shouldn't unit and develop representation. Anyone who cooks up any reason against doing so is a SPY or sabotage'r or just plain stupid. Fellow sellers, don't listed to any crap from such posters, just ignore them.

Seller Unity

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: eBuyer Feedback

Sat Feb 20 19:13:35 2010

And I might add that PayPal has just publicly stated a way to get free items from sellers.  At least before the scammers had to think of the idea themselves or read about it (like I did years ago) in the forums.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: buck efay

Sat Feb 20 20:11:41 2010

Of course, this was never an issue when we could ACCEPT MONEY ORDERS!

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: Joyful

Sat Feb 20 20:42:51 2010

This could also affect foreign sales for some sellers. Non-U.S. buyers often have items shipped to a U.S. forwarder who combines their purchases to ship more cheaply.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: Jim

Sat Feb 20 23:14:09 2010

I sent Paypal an email requesting a response on this and this is what I received.  I do not want a phone call I want something in writing.  

Email follows

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

Please give us a call at 1-402-935-2050 so we can quickly get you the
information you need.

4:00 AM PST to 10:00 PM PST Monday through Friday
6:00 AM PST to 8:00 PM PST Saturday and Sunday

Don't forget, we're always around if you need us. Just click ''Help'' in
the top right corner of any PayPal page to visit our improved Help
Center.

Original Message Follows:
------------------------  
Form  Message  
customer  subject:  Do  USPS  Fowarding  addresses  have  seller  protection  
customer  message:  Additional  Information:  'There  is  a   Amendment  to  the  
PayPal  User  Agreement  which  says  
 
The  following  will  be  added  to  section  ##.#  (newly  numbered  ##.#)  as  an  
additional  example  of  transactions  not  eligible  for  seller  protection:  
 
''Items  that  are  not  shipped  to  the  recipient's  shipping  address  on  the  
Transaction  Details  Page.  If  you  originally  ship  the  item  to  the  
shipping  address  on  the  Transaction  Details  Page  but  the  item  is  later  
redirected  to  a  different  address,  you  will  not  be  eligible  for  seller  
protection.  We  therefore  recommend  not  using  a  shipping  service  that  is  
controlled  by  the  buyer.''  
 
Question  are  USPS  forwarded  address  covered  by  seller  protection  now.    
Will  they  continue  to  be  covered  by  seller  protection.    
 
If  not  what  is  best  practices  to  prevent  fowarding  of  shipped  items.'

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: Norma Ray

Sun Feb 21 01:46:16 2010

Back at Sellers Unite

Do it! Set up a free site somewhere and put the web address in Auctionbytes in a Letter to the Editor. You've got the ideas and the passion.  If you build it, they will come!

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: Goodbye Ebay

Sun Feb 21 01:57:36 2010


@ Seller Unity

Excellent post!

Regretfully, I have no lawyer to recommend, but I willing to pay a membership fee and/or help in any way I can to get this site off the ground.
There is strength in numbers and anyone who doubts that just needs to open a history book (or two!).

How did that go? I'm mad as hell and.....

I really do hope someone picks up the torch and organizes something. I'll be waiting and watching.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: United We Stand

Sun Feb 21 02:10:23 2010


If only one out of every hundred disgruntled Pay Pal and eBay members stepped forward to support something like this, you'd have a small city or maybe even a big one! The number of people who have had a negative experience with eBay management and/or Pay Pal is truly staggering.

When was the last time you heard anyone say anything nice about their experience as a buyer or seller on eBay? Or using Pay Pal. Just do a search on Pay Pal sux . com This is just a small percentage of unhappy campers. They are many many more!

People are fed up. The timing is right. Get this going!

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: Marvin

Sun Feb 21 04:08:02 2010

HERE IS THE SOLUTION

Take a few minutes now and follow these very simple instructions and you can be guaranteed things at ebay and paypal will change very quickly.

1. Look up the money ebay paid your congressman on the youtube video ''ebay buys congress''

The youtube video list all money ebay paid to every congressman and can be found at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU2mMCMyASk

2. Look up your congressman address (each state has 2 senators) at:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.
cfm

3.
Contact your senators by email and phone and follow it up with a written letter. Tell them and tell  up front you know they take money from ebay (which owns paypal). Tell them how much they took in the last elections. Explain your problems with ebay and paypal. Ask your congressmen to stop taking ebay money and start taking legal actions against ebay/paypal.

4. Insist on a written response.

5. Twitter, post, link and email the link to the video and encourage everyone to act.

Do this and things will change for the better very quickly and that is a GUARANTEED FACT.

If you can't take a few minutes to twitter, post email, call or write things will only get worse. The Constitution of the United States vest all power over the government with the people, not congress. The congress is only there to represent the people. Only you have the power to make a change.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: Ignore the Buyer requests

Sun Feb 21 04:38:59 2010

For our own seller protection - we ignore all buyer requests ship here, ship there..would you ship this to my grandma in Boise, etc. Just simply always use the address paypal gives you. Yes, we have received a few negatives from dumb buyers - "you didn't ship as requested" - so what? We block them so they can't bother us anymore. Sellers must remember that sleeze eBay/paypal is corrupt & basically bad so any anti-seller activity must get some form of revenge.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: Jim

Sun Feb 21 10:48:18 2010

Here is the latest exchange with paypal.

I responded:

Thanks,  but  just  send  me  an  email  with  the  information.    This  seems  to  
be  simple.  
 
1.  Are  USPS  shipments  that  are  forwarded  covered  or  not  covered  by  
seller  protection.  
2.   What  is  the  best  thing  to  do?    Mark  packages-Do  not  forward  for  
example.  
 
Yours  
 
Jim  

Paypal responded:

Dear Jim,

Our Customer Service agents seek to provide you with prompt and
efficient customer service. When you correspond via email with PayPal
about your case, please make sure to include your case details.

This includes:
•  Case ID number
•  Transaction number
•  A detailed description of your question or issue

By providing this information, you are helping to ensure that your
Customer Service agent will be able to find your case quickly and assist
you.

Please reply with this information so that we may better assist you.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Katharyn

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: RicRoe

Sun Feb 21 11:33:25 2010

Based upon this, PayPal has essentially declared seller protections null and void for any package sent through USPS.

Buyers can request USPS forward their mail for any reason. Simply fill out a form, and mail is automatically forwarded.

So essentially, based on PayPal's policy update, USPS mail is a "shipping service controlled by the buyer".

So eBay has declared US Postal Money orders an unsafe form of payment, and has now declared USPS is no longer a reliable shipping service because buyers can instruct them to forward mail.

Which team of idiots created this policy and who authorized the release without fully considering the impact on sellers?

Declaration that packages sent by USPS are no longer covered by the seller protection policy is a major policy change, and deserves to be more clearly and transparently stated. Such declarations should not be deliberately concealed in vague wording designed by the same people that brought us "lowest fees ever" when virtually every seller will pay more.

eBay needs to bring back the chimps to run this company, they were doing a better job than this team of MBA's.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: On Lies and Secrets

Sun Feb 21 13:33:43 2010

I agree with Ric Roe (and Ina who posted this topic for discussion) in the idea that this is a *major* policy change.  Fraudsters who prey on the ebay community are likely very happy right and dancing in the streets.  IMO, sellers need to carefully consider how this change will imapct their profitability and price their items accordingly on ebay or move certain items to other venues where they can be sold at a lower risk of loss.

''Whatever'' posted a link to the brewsnews blog which does do an excellent job describing the implications of this change.  As others here have noted, USPS and most other major shippers will redirect a package at the buyer's request (from the discussion on brewsbews, UPS charges the buyer a small fee to redirect a package and  FEDEX actually charges the **shipper** a fee when the *buyer* requests another destnation).  

The implication of this policy change seems to be that there are no inexpensive ways to ship any items and still get full seller protection for sales on ebay.  Adding insult to injury is the fact that the ebay corporation apparently will **not** verify buyers by name, address and form of payment.   IMO, this is terribly unfair - the ebay corporation is shifting all of the risk of this type of fraudulent behavior onto sellers and refuses to mitigate the risk of fraud at all by simply screening/verifying buyers.

Other posters have made great suggestions as to how to proceed collectively (by forming a group) and individually (by writing to your elected officials and describing the problems that you have had with ebay or paypal).  In some cases all it takes is a few hundred well-written letters for an elected official to investigate an issue.  

I no longer sell on ebay, but I still buy there a little.  This policy change concerns me as a buyer because sellers will now have to price their goods to account for potential losses to scammers.  Good buyers end up paying more for items with rules like this on the site.  This policy is bad for buyers and for sellers.  IMO, almost every action by the ebay corporation that is punitive to sellers finds its way into the goods that are avilable and into the prices for goods.  The ebay corpration cannot victimze sellers without also harming buyers in the process.

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: On Lies and Secrets

Sun Feb 21 13:46:18 2010

''eBay needs to bring back the chimps to run this company, they were doing a better job than this team of MBA's.''

I agree. And I have to add this:

NEG MEG WHITMAN IN 2010

She is no friend to small businesses. She is no friend to consumers.  Keep the type of thinking that Whitman and the ebay corporation have out of public office.  Everyone deserves much better than anything Whitman can offer.  

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: Patricia

Sun Feb 21 14:03:15 2010

Like him or not...here is the man you all should be writing to:

http://www.jerrybrown.org/

He's running for governor of California with a very good chance at winning the election...he's presently Attorney General of California.  He needs "causes" to make him look good.  Make Paypal/Ebay one of those causes!!!!

PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision   PayPal Policy Removes a Key Seller-Protection Provision

by: buck efay, huh huh huh

Sun Feb 21 14:56:13 2010

Looks like Donuthead's plan is working... Usually about 20 jobs in the queue at bonanzle waiting, this past 2 weeks, every time I try to take listings OFF ebay and ONTO bonanzle, there have been 130-160 jobs in friont of ours! Great work, destructive IDIOTvator!

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