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Wed Jan 13 2010 23:00:41

New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy

By: Ina Steiner
Sponsored Link
To the Editor:
I just spoke with paypal today and they have instituted a new policy where they hold payments for 21 days (or less) for all sellers who sell less that $20,000, yes 20k!, in every 3 month (90 day) period!

I couldn't believe this, I have sold for 12 years on ebay, have over 1600 positives, 100% positive, 4.9 or 4.8 on all seller ratings, and paypal told me today that payments to me will be held for up to 21 days!

I actually have a recording of my conversation with paypal, where the paypal rep (Kate) discusses the new policy, she clearly states the new 20k pending policy, and she says she read the new policy in a memo that came across their computers on Dec 30 09. I said that the 20k criteria is not listed on their "pending payments" webpage or on their website anywhere, she had no answer to that....

This policy does not fit with what they told you previously ("PayPal's Jeff Clementz and eBay Trust & Safety's John McDonald told AuctionBytes on Thursday that sellers who have been selling on the site for at least 6 months and have a minimum feedback score of 100 would not be affected unless their Buyer Dissatisfaction Rate for the last 30 days becomes greater than 5 percent. (See related story on Buyer Dissatisfaction Rates)."

The paypal rep also claimed that they make zero interest off of the funds that they hold; I'm a bit skeptical.... Ebay and paypal are no longer a "little guy" friendly community. It's all about the big sellers and store fronts.... It's too bad.

Have you heard of this new policy already? Please investigate this. Thank you!

Note from the Editor: See this AuctionBytes Blog post from 2 weeks ago, a follow-up inquiry has not received a reply.

Update 1/20/10: PayPal Spokesperson Sara Gorman responded to our inquiry via email: "There is no such policy that 21-day holds would apply to all sellers who sell less than $20,000 per month. This is a case of human error - the agent was incorrect."



Comments (38) | Permalink
Readers Comments

New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: J.Powell
       
Wed Jan 13 23:24:57 2010
No surprise.  ebay has become extremely anti small seller.  Big sellers are not affected by such a 21 day hold of PP payments if sales under $20,000 but smaller sellers are.  Who can afford to buy an item, list it, sell it, ship it, pay all the fees, pay for the shipping, and not touch the money for 21 days?  

Just like the policy that allows sellers to select their mailing days ''I ship in 5 business days'' that penalizes sellers who use the option (feedback question ''did seller ship quickly?''_.

Obvious that ebay is more comfortable working with big box customers and not the little guys and gals.    

Time to move to another site who appreciates and respects small sellers, ebid.net.

New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: GabbyT
       
Wed Jan 13 23:53:32 2010
Ahh, I don't think this is correct at all. There is absolutely nothing about a $20,000 limit anywhere on the Paypal site. They can place a 21 day hold but only as follows:
10.6 eBay Item Hold. PayPal, in its sole discretion, may place a hold on a payment you receive for an eBay transaction when PayPal believes there may be a high level of risk associated with the transaction. If PayPal places a hold on your payment, it will show as "pending" in your PayPal Account.

  1.

     Release of eBay item hold. PayPal will release the eBay item hold after 21 days unless you receive a Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal on the transaction subject to the hold. PayPal may release the hold earlier if either of the following applies:
  2. The buyer leaves positive feedback on eBay, or (ii) PayPal can confirm delivery. PayPal will confirm delivery if you use USPS, UPS or FedEx to ship the item and (i) use PayPal shipping labels, or (ii) upload tracking information to PayPal via the transaction details page. This applies to US domestic transactions only.
  3.

     Additional hold period. If you receive a Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal on the transaction subject to the eBay item hold, PayPal may hold the payment in your Account until the matter is resolved pursuant to this Agreement.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: brecklundin
       
Thu Jan 14 00:09:06 2010
Fine I will stop taking PP and go exclusively with Paymate & Moneybookers...they are an approved eBay payment option and I already have accounts with both.

Does this remind anyone of when everybody went with PP because eBay's own payment service, Billpoint, was fraught with seller frustrations & restrictions.

If this sort of thing really happens w/o any explicit notice then see ya PayPal.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: Lawrence A Dickerson
       
Thu Jan 14 00:16:26 2010
I am more  concerned at the moment over your admission that you have a recorded conversation which is illegal unless the other party is aware and agrees.That's a federal law.For your concern,if this is true,I would beg to have this removed quickly.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: TEW
       
Thu Jan 14 00:45:37 2010
Lawrence: What law school did you graduate from?  State laws differ and some states allow one-party consent recordings.  And, even if that were not the case, how slow do you think it would have to be for the Feds to step in based on a comment on a blog?

As for eBay and PayPal... they'll keep up with this kind of stuff until the Feds coming crashing in.  At that point, they may change their tune.  In the meantime, we suffer.

Of course, maybe the fix is in and the Feds won't step in (despite PP sidestepping many banking laws) - after all the Feds Allowed eBay to buy PP in the first place, despite clear evidence of a monopoly on both auctions and on-line payments.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: EventHorizon1984
       
Thu Jan 14 00:53:39 2010
> by: GabbyT
> Wed Jan 13 23:53:32 2010
> Ahh, I don't think this is correct at all.

It's too bad you gloss over the legal part of that section.

''PayPal, in its sole discretion, may place a hold on a payment''

Let's shorten that and add EMPHASIS.

''PayPal, IN ITS SOLE DISCRETION''

In very simplistic terms that means 'whim.' And PayPal is under no obligation to detail the boundaries of it's ''discretion.''

In other words should PayPal decide to use at it's ''discretion'' a hold of funds under $20,000, PayPal does not need to spell it out.  

As an aside when the topic of PayPal holds come up, you can find sandypurins and missouri_treasure giving this same repetitive advice on the eBay PayPal Board.
http://tinyurl.com/yexqlea
http://tinyurl.com/ybbqkzv


It's
a very nice public service, but I do wonder from what IP.

//

''Isn't that weird? What a coincidence!''
Columbo
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: fruity
       
Thu Jan 14 00:57:41 2010
What ebay is doing is they are trying to make you confused as you compare notes with other sellers, that's why they come up with all these make up reasons or slightly modified statements. They also are probably doing it so people when they google a phrase can't find each other.

I think I have found a new business!
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: J.G.
       
Thu Jan 14 01:31:26 2010
Well, we were warned that it was coming but it still sucks.  If you're staying at eBay, you either have to roll with their punches and sit out the 21 days, or circumvent Paypal -- that is until they say you can't use your own merchant account or the other presently eBay-approved payment systems.  I find it very difficult to believe that there will be no interest earned on these 21- day holds.

Is there anyone left out there who still only uses eBay?  If there is, please see the writing on the wall.  It's inviting you to leave.  Even though we are cute and cuddly Moms and Pops when our fearless leader is out speaking around town, in reality, we are nothing to him and he is really throwing that fact in our faces. JD has in the past year instituted policies that have killed the businesses of these Moms and Pops. So, if you are staying, just stay to use them, but have a back-up plan as the day will come when you will say, as thousands before you have, ''enough is enough.''

New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: Paul
       
Thu Jan 14 01:53:57 2010
In the past 30 days, I have had sales to France, United Kingdom, Canada, Latvia, Switzerland, Poland, Russia, China, Croatia, Spain, Hong Kong, India, Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg, Netherlands, multiple sales to some of those, and USA.  Not once have any of my payments been subject to any kind of hold.  I think we're hearing Chicken Little here.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: William
       
Thu Jan 14 03:29:54 2010
As I said before, I only buy on eBay at this time, I am thinking about selling, but every time i get ready to sell I hear a negative comment about ebay or paypal, that has the scent of truth in it, and I put off selling. This 21 day policy will stop me cold.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: Marvin
       
Thu Jan 14 05:09:18 2010
FEDERAL LAW SAYS YOU CAN RECORD A CALL, if you are a party to it. You do not need the other parties permission.

You can also record screen captures, chats, oral conversations and pretty much anything else you are a party to!!!

The specific law is: US Code TITLE 18  PART I  CHAPTER 119 § 2511



New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: Dennis Littleton
       
Thu Jan 14 05:21:16 2010
I see people post to the eBay forums almost daily who have been selling for years with thousands of feedback, most 100% positive with DSR's that look great and no claims in years who suddenly get the message from PayPal that they are being placed on a rolling reserve or 21 day hold. Non of them seem to fit what the user agreement say's. So this makes sense in light of what's going on with PayPal. I went ahead and stopped taking PayPal a few months ago when we started seeing this. I can't take the chance of them deciding I don't need my money right away. And after all they are not regulated by the FDIC and since Paymate uses Wells Fargo bank for the merchant accounts they are. Its truly a safer option.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: Dennis Littleton
       
Thu Jan 14 05:30:20 2010
Yes you can record your phone calls as long as you know your doing it. You do not have to disclose that to the other party.

US Code TITLE 18  PART I  CHAPTER 119 § 2511

(d) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for a person not acting under color of law to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication where such person is a party to the communication or where one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception unless such communication is intercepted for the purpose of committing any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or of any State.

There is an exception to useing that recording on radio or TV. You are required to have the callers permission or make them aware that they are on the air or may be played on the air or the caller should have a reasonable expectation that they may be broadcast because they are calling a live callin line or some line used for such purposes. You cannot get permission to broadcast the phone call after the fact. It's done but it's not legal.

New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: little seller
       
Thu Jan 14 08:06:26 2010
I had three sales on Tuesday night from two different venues.  Here is why these sales made me smile:

1. None were on eBay
2. All three used Google Checkout
3. Google Checkout has already disbursed the funds to my checking account without any effort on my part
4. All three had lower FVF than eBay

The only reason I use PayPal only on my eBay account is because I am FORCED to by eBay.

Guess which service I would drop in a heartbeat if I had a choice.  I am certain that if eBay allowed Google Checkout on their site, more than 90% of sellers would offer it as an option versus PayPal.  eBay's position that GC is an unsafe method is absolutely bull.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: ZombieDeals
       
Thu Jan 14 09:12:43 2010
This is EXACTLY why I dumped ebay and went with Amazon.  My sales are phenomenal and MUCH less stressful.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: Joe
       
Thu Jan 14 09:33:40 2010
@lawrence dickerson and others

Actually the legality of recording  PayPal and eBay conversation is moot. Both PayPal and eBay state and acknowledge that the converstions may be recorded for training and other purposes. Thus you also are free to record the conversations as permission to record has been given...just make sure you record that part also.

It's not a one way street you know...

Record them and keep them and keep them forever...

As far as the 21 day holds go, as I stated before...

File a claim against their bond in the state in which you live, PayPal is a money transmitter and must transmit and complete the tranfer transaction within a certain time frame. Check your state statute and file a claim for each uncompleted transaction...

Don't just take whatever they throw at you as gospel, no agreement can make you give up your legal remedies regardless if you use their system or not...

New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: Lisa
       
Thu Jan 14 09:53:47 2010
As far as phone taping, laws vary state by state.  You can figure out what is and is not legal here: http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

As far as the 21 day hold, unless it's stuffed under a mattress, assume PayPal has the money in a trust account and it's earning interest.  This *technically* makes PayPal a bank and subjects them to regulations (not that anybody in government pays attention to bank regulations these days).

For off eBay sales,PayPal is great. But for eBay, I wouldn't take PP on a bet.  I've been talking with different cc merchant companies, their rates are about the same as PP except you don't have to request the release of your money, it's auto-deposited to your merchant account which they also set up for you, and they have shopping carts and most are set up to accept eBay payments as  well.

Though, as usual, PayPal is doing this back-asswards - the big money is holding the $20k plus monthly sellers $$ for 21 days for the REAL interest - they know those $20k plus sellers already have cc processing and merchant accounts of their own.  The little sellers don't.  But, if you're willing to pay about $15 a month on top of fees same as PP, you can.  I can't afford 21 day holds, so $15 a month is a good enough deal for me.

All of the cc processors are on the resources part of AB's front page. They will clamor for your business.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: Phone Guy
       
Thu Jan 14 10:35:44 2010
Twelve states require the consent of every party to a phone call or conversation in order to make the recording lawful. These "two-party consent" laws have been adopted in California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington. Although they are referred to as "two-party consent" laws, consent must be obtained from every party to a phone call or conversation if it involves more than two people. See the State Law: Recording section of this legal guide for information on state wiretapping laws.
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: fast eddie
       
Thu Jan 14 11:00:56 2010

PayPal 21 day holds are just designed to finance short term ''Bill Me Later'' funding, you may know or read of Bill Me Later as the 100% interest and perpetual service fee charging arm of eBay/PayPal. (Int. & Fees even after your Balance is paid off)

There are no interest bearing trusts at present where PayPal can park your cash as interest rates are at ''ZERO'' unless you borrow.

The only way to get top return...finance ''Bill Me Later'' with those 21 day holds...

Free use of your money= 100% interest & fee's...how cool is that!!!

Thats what I would do with it...

So Now you know...
New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy   New $20k PayPal 21-Day Hold Policy
by: Patricia
       
Thu Jan 14 11:19:59 2010
"The paypal rep also claimed that they make zero interest off of the funds that they hold; I'm a bit skeptical.."

You should be more than a bit skeptical.  When they first started these 21 day holds it was estimated that Paypal would be making an extra 40 million dollars per quarter from the interest off the float.  Money never sits in these businesses without making interest so right there tells me that paypal agent was either pulling your leg or didn't know what she was talking about.

I do feel that Ebay/Paypal will try to hold money on all of us in the future, especially since their core business continues to decline.  Maybe they're not quite ready to take on the thousands of angry sellers - or maybe they feel there will be a mass exodus unlike what they've seen in the past. (shrug)
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